To Memnoch, concerning others opinions about Ed Greenwood

[Larry_OHF]

<font color="white">The answers I received (including from Elaine Cunningham), were pretty much against our opinions of Ed's problems with nudity. Read below.</font>:

My Name is Gladiator Member posted July 10, 2001 05:49 PM PT (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry, I think your friends are using the nudity issue as a smokescreen for their general frustration with Ed's writing. The world of fantasy is no stranger for exhibiting exploitative nudity. Boris Valjevo's artwork and the magazine 'Heavy Metal' come to mind - there are multitudes of examples. If the nudity presented in Ed's writing is the sole purpose for your friends' distaste, then they are prudes indeed. I happen to love Ed's writing - his wit and merry disposition reagrding adventure and the 'Realms always shine through. This isn't to say that at times I too can become ponderous over a direction his writing will go - I don't like how he develops villains sometimes and just wantanly kills them, or has them fumbling in their incompetence. He never does this with the heroes, I've noticed! LOL The id has always been prevalent with Ed's work, as well as a boyish exuberance that I find charming. His imagery is top notch - especially in those Volo's guides. He is the master and creator of the Realms. Regardless of whether you like or dislike his work, like Frank Sinatra, he's doing it his way. ------------------ Sun Elf Member posted July 10, 2001 08:04 PM PT (US) ------------------------------------------------- Who cares about nudity? If you're offended then don't read it. If you can't handle nudity, then you belong in a kindergarten studying the different colors. Oh no... nudity... i hope i never read a book with nude women in it. (sarcasm) ------------------ The gold elves had succumbed the rule of their inferiors for far to long. With renewed purpose, the elf began to plan his attack. Beleriphon Member posted July 10, 2001 10:18 PM PT (US) ---------------------------------------------------------- quote: ------------------------------------------------------------ Actually this is largely due to his contract with (not sure now with WOTC) TSR. He was required to write in a certain manner and on several occasions has stated that even he disliked the way stories were presented. As for nudity that is a rather prudish way to look at things. I mean really, have your friends never been naked on occasion. It's not as if the Ed is writing in explicit sex scenes or anything. (Has anybody notice that "Elminster" isn't in the online dictionary but Greenwood and Reynolds are? Odd for an FR board) Some things in life are worth more than money, for everything else, there's GnomeCard. Use it wherever you see the large nose sign. *Winter* Member posted July 10, 2001 11:05 PM PT (US) ----------------------------------------------------- You are all entitled to your opinions. My opinion, however, is that Ed Greenwood writes good stories. Maybe a little too much crying there, but good nonetheless. You see, for me as a northern barbarian who thinks of weeping as weak and pathetic, it's really ruining most of the good image I have of the characters in the book. Right now I don't have any of Mr. Greenwoods novels here, but I'll bet that there is probably fewer pages than thirty before someone weeps in at least one of his books. Now I want to complain too. Maybe I'll copy your complaint-form and change nudity with crying. Yeah, that'll show 'em! Something as natural as nudity and crying in novels. What an outrage. I demand it is removed at once! Make WotC call back every book they've published and correct the error of their ways! ps. This is just a rant. Feel free to complain and whine if you A) Don't get the point, or B) Thinks I'm too stupid. Either way I'll probably ignore you. Have a nice day! Aegeri Member posted July 11, 2001 04:11 AM PT (US) ----------------------------------------- I think his novels are utter trollop not because of the nudity [Hell I see enough Female body parts from my girlfriend at the moment] but because of just how truely pathetic the characters and stories are. Yes the fact that the 7 sisters etc keep getting naked all the time IS one point about it and the fact that most female characters in his books appear to be strippers of some description or worse, nymphomaniacs. The nudity DOES NOT OFFEND ME. What DOES is the fact that its utterly NOT needed, simply makes what is already tripe just that slighty bit worse and to boot, most of his female characters seem to have some pretty funny ideas about what clothes are for. Sure its amusing if your into that sort of characterisation, but I prefer my fantasy novels where the female characters can actually keep their clothes on for most of the novel thankyouverymuch. ------------------ diaglo Member posted July 11, 2001 05:02 AM PT (US) ------------------------------------------------------------ death of the dragon has nudity, too. spoiler when arabel is sacked by the orcs and goblins. azoun has the war wizards open a portal to suzail to send the populace to safety. the beautiful, of course, female wizards have some little nude freak show for the whole world to see. the male wizards get naked too, but are described as less than appealing. truthfully though until you mentioned it i never noticed. ed is not the only one to write love scenes in his work. i can think of at least one from elaine where her halfelf persona sows her wild oats with an elf, and is caught for sleeping afterwards. ------------------ durrans Member posted July 11, 2001 07:27 AM PT (US) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Simple Statement here. If you don't like it Don't Buy it. Next thing you know you'll be calling for a book burning. Personally I do not think that there is that much nudity in the books. I mean you act as if He is writing Hardcore Porn. HE is not. Censorship sucks. So for the people who enjoy Greenwoods work. I repeat IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT DO NOT BUY IT. If alot of people agree with you than greenwood will not sell any books. Let the Market decide don't put a cap on creativity. I love greenwoods work even though i did think they cried too damn much in spellfire. ------------------ How can I slay you if you continue to resist so? Tis truly frustrating. Now be a good chap and hold still will you? diaglo Member posted July 11, 2001 07:31 AM PT (US) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Elaine Cunningham Member posted July 11, 2001 09:54 AM PT (US) ---------------------------------------------------------------- quote: ------------------------------------------------------------- Hello. Wait just a minute. Who said that Elminster is "supposed to be a mirror image of Ed?" I've heard this assumption before, and I've responded before, but here goes one more time: Ed Greenwood is not Elminster, or vice versa. Perhaps the fact that the dresses the role at GenCon confuses some people. They're definitely both "characters," but one is real, the other is fictional. For the record, Elminster is not even the character with whom Ed most closely identifies. That would be Mirt. Elminster was created as a point of view for a column. His popularity led to the novels, and so on. But Elminster is not, and was not designed to be, Ed Greenwood's alter ego. Authors are NOT their characters, and should not be confused with them. Artemis Entreri is not a thinly veiled version of Bob Salvatore, I bear no discernable resemblence whatsoever to Liriel Baenre, and I sincerely doubt that Thomas Harris, the author of SILENCE OF THE LAMBS and HANNIBAL, is a pyschotic serial killer who tends to eat his victim's livers with fava beans and a nice chianti. If authors feared that this assumption would be routinely made, imagine what we'd be writing. No, don't bother. Most of the writers I know, myself included, are not particularly interesting. Characters based on ourselves would make for pretty tame reading. You're much better off with 900-year-old wizards and hot fantasy women with dubious fashion sense. I understand the concern expressed about Ed Greenwood's novels, and I believe the solution has already been given: If you don't like them, don't read them. And if enough people stop reading them, then you'll have gotten your message through to Ed. One more time: Ed Greenwood is not Elminster, or vice versa.

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[This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 07-11-2001).]

[Larry_OHF]

At least one guy so far, sees it the way we do...check it out.

Here is what I don't like about Ed's writing: 1. His character's are very cliche and lifeless. All his good character's seem to share the same values and personality as do all his evil characters: a. Good Character: Doesn't like to kill. Good hearted. Witty sense of humor. Prone to constantly crack jokes. Constant stream of drivel. b. Evil characters. Arrogant. Often easily defeated in a laughable way. Abuse women. Kill almost everyone around them. I find much of it kind of boring. The nudity and the relationship women in the story have with Elminster is laughably adolescent and only adds to the pretentiousness of the story. I can see wanting to make your favorite character an all around great guy that can destroy everyone and every women loves. If you want people to respect you as a writer of fantasy, I would have refrained. I think Ed Greenwood's books are very amateurish and without quality content. A good read just to garner some information about the Forgotten Realm's and its occupants. Other than this reason, I would not play the character's in a role playing situation as Ed portray's them most of the time. They would be way to one dimensional. Some things I like about Greenwood's stories: a. He has really great concepts for his world and the plots are interesting. He really does a great job of making his world stand out from others. b. He writes magic that can be accomplished in the actual D and D game very well. I actually could see the use of several D and D spells in his books, and he portrayed them in a very reasonable way. So for the most part, I personally feel Greenwood is not the greatest writer. Yet I love the world and many of concepts behind the characters he has created. And Forgoten Realms blows away the original Greyhawk for creativity and depth.

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[jabidas]

While Im not Memnoch I to put it lightly disagree.

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[Memnoch]

Larry, what's all this? Can you give me a link please? I want to post my opinion. The issue is not about nudity but about the puerile, adolescent, immature way he includes it when there is no literary or even shock value. I have no problem with nudity and sex in a book, Anne Rice's books are rife witrh them. My problem is when it's addressed in such a pathetic, demeaning and most importantly unsexy way. He's not even good at it. It's like sex from a 12-year old's eyes. Troy Denning is an example of an author who refers to nudity and sex in his books (referring to the same characters Greenwood is referring to - Elminster, Seven Sisters et al) and manages to pull it off well. Women sound sexy in Denning's books - not trashy like in Ed's.

Give me the link to this site and I will voice my opinion for myself.

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[dominions]

I have to agree with Memnoch. The people that posted above really have missed the point. It's not the Nudity but they way it's used where not needed - this helps destroy the suspension of disbelief a book is supposed to create.

Also, I noticed that one or two of the people above seem to be .... over-reacting somewhat (censorship?!). But then again, you could say the same about us...



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[Larry_OHF]

Another quote from these guys...

RobertS Member posted July 11, 2001 09:30 PM PT (US) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Part of the problem comes for the notion that the Chosen are perfect and infallible. This is, in the defense of Mr. Greenwood, not a notion he tries to encourage. He has stated in the past that he has tried to convey that after living for centuries and having the goddess of magic living in their heads, that the Chosen are not sane. Be that as it may, there is a continuing notion that the Chosen are all perfect, infallible and unquestionable. This is rather clearly illustrated in Silverfall, where Lareal and Qilue both suffer the most grievous injuries and just shrug it off. Even with healing abilities they still feel pain and should have the good sense to duck. Further more is Dove’s forgetting that she has a husband and son and seriously thinking about running away with a former slaver. These stories read much easier if one views the Sisters as all having some sort of psychological sexual disorder. This is as compared to Khelben’s aggressive Type-A personality and obsessive-compulsive disorder and Elminster’s senility.

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[Larry_OHF]

Sorry, here is the link:
boards.wizards.com/realms/Forum8/HTML/000245.html

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[Larry_OHF]

Elaine Cunningham wrote to me personally! The only bad thing is...it was to rebuke me...
See below.

Just a quick note to add to my response. After answering your email, I happened upon your post on the FR Novels board. While I understand and respect your opinion about Ed Greenwood’s novels, I am concerned about the manner in which this opinion was voiced. If you had ever met Ed Greenwood, you would realize that he is not “a pervert with serious issues,” or someone who is “unfit” to write stories. These are very harsh judgements to be passing on a stranger’s character. In reality he is a hard-working, generous, cheerful soul who works full time as a librarian, a job he has held for many years. He is married, to all appearances quite happily, to an intelligent and personable woman, also a librarian, and they live in a 100-year-old farmhouse in rural Ontario. As I mentioned in my rebuttal post, the lives of authors seldon provide fodder for exciting stories. I’m seldom bothered by criticisms of my work or that of my friends. But online interaction is also full of personal attacks, casually tossed out insults, and speculation about authors’ character, motives, ethics, and personal habits. You don’t strike me as a person who routinely indulges in this sort of thing. If you are determined to continue trying to contact Ed with your concerns, or to discuss them on a public forum, I urge you to focus on the stories and encourage others to do the same. Sincerely, Elaine Cunningham

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[Memnoch]

*sigh*

Larry, you may have (unintentionally) misrepresented me by quoting me in bits and pieces out of context. I stand by everything I said as that is my opinion and I'm not worried that you posted it, but it's usually not a good idea to take a paragraph or a post out of an entire thread and post it elsewhere out of context because other people reading it will not have perspective.

Just to reiterate my point of view: I have no issue with nudity or sex in a novel if it is appropriate to the scene or novel and is well-done. It can be as graphic as hell for all I care, none of that stuff offends me (one of my ex-girlfriends used to be a table dancer. ) Anne Rice's books are laden with sexuality and innuendo. Richard Laymon's horror novels are full of sex and nudity, but he gets away with it because he writes these scenes in very well and there is a reason for them. There is quite a bit of sex in all the Ravenloft novels but they all mesh well with the novels. With Ed Greenwood's novels, on the other hand, the nudity is just there, for no reason, and it actually detracts from the plot. I am not offended by it, I just find it contrived, artificial and ultimately pathetic - like watching Titanic where Kate Winslet is wearing a bikini for the entire movie. It's what's called B-Grade in Hollywood.

But, at the end of the day this is just my opinion, and other people will have theirs.

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[Larry_OHF]

Larry, you may have (unintentionally) misrepresented me by quoting me in bits and pieces out of context.

<font color="white">
Never did I use anyone's name, (that I am aware of...)
Actually, I copied the entire thread and sent it over. I believe that most of the problem lies in <u>my own words</u> that I used in the first paragraph on their site.
I had no intention to make this become a battle between those guys and me, but I actually was looking for a doorway into see the big guy himself. Elaine C. tells me (in a personal e-mail) that he does not make himself public like she does. So, in my opinion, he pretty much does not care what we say about his writing. I do not know what else to do, so I think I will drop it unless someone on either board involves me. From what I can see, I have some backers on their site, saying what I did not have the words to express. I am thankful for their input that helped my image and the opinion I was trying to stress. Either way, I believe I made my point that not everyone is in agreeance with what is wrote. I shall delete that thread off of thier site, at your request. After all, I am loyal to Ironworks and the OHF, first. </font>

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Devoted member of the Ironworks
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