Altering NPC's.

[Froberg]

I've taken to modifying NPC's classes in Shadowkeeper to be able to use them in my party.
I love the NPC's - and I want to keep the dialogue, so sometimes I give minsc some more in long bow if I have enough tanks etc.

Is it wrong to alter characters to what you would have made them if they were yours?

Alternatively I'd play with an MP party - but I am a whore for the dialogue.

[Andyr]

I think the notion of "right and wrong" with regards to cheating your NPCs doesn't mean much. [img]smile.gif[/img] Though you'll probably spart off a debate among people in opposing camps...

Personally, I don't change stats, classes or proficiencies etc of the existing NPCs when I play.

[Kestrel Daystar]

I am similar to you Froberg. I like to edit my NPCs alittle. However I dont like making them gods, I like to keep them relatively 'weak' so its not just a walk in the park. I like to edit the colours and everything else though.

And I would create a MP party too, but im addicted to banter, I love it so much.


--Kestrel--

[Sir Degrader]

No, I tend to find that unless you REALLY alter an NPC for powergaming purposes, it doesn't matter. For example, I change imoen into Multiclass T/M, or Anomen a F/C multiclass. Your game shouldn't be impeded by the rules of a defunct RPG system (In the new edition, you can do exactly that legally). It's your game, do what you want with it!

[Xen]

For altering NPC's check out the Level 1 NPC's mod. It was made by Gerhard Blucher.

[Klutz]

The main modifications I'd like to make are just with regards to proficiency selections, though I could see modifying them to slightly different classes to get a more varied experience out of them.

Jaheira: It's tempting to completely revise Jaheira to make her a club/scimitar dual-wielding machine, but really it's only the one point in Sword and Shield Style that bugs me. It's especially painful since as a multiclass she gets proficiencies very slowly... only two new ones under the SOA XP cap in fact!
Jaheira now (recruited at level 6/7 F/D):
** Club, * Scimitar, * Sling, * Quarterstaff, * Sword and Shield Style

Possible alternate Jaheira (anything below level 9 as a Fighter):
** Club, ** Scimitar, * Sling, * Quarterstaff
Though I'd love to move that point into Two Weapon Style, realistically I see it more likely that she'd specialize in a second weapon. I'm saying Scimitar, though you could make a case for Sling.


Anomen: He's actually missing 4 proficiency slots because he is a dual-class, not a multiclass. (It's possible to waste 3 out of those 4 slots, but he couldn't possibly have wasted the 4th.)

Anomen now (when recruited at level 7/8 F/C):
** Mace, ** Sling, * Hammer, * Sword and Shield Style

Possible "optimal" proficiency assignment for Anomen at level 7/8 F/C:
** Mace, ** Sling, ** Sword and Shield Style, ** Hammer, * Quarterstaff, * Flail
This keeps all Anomen's existing proficiency selections while enhancing them a bit, and the single points in Quarterstaff and Flail come from his Cleric levels before regaining his Fighter abilities. If I had the editor, I'd probably change from Sword and Shield Style to Two Weapon Style as being the more effective one in the game, but Sword and Shield Style suits his personality/style better.


If you don't play with mods, grandmastery (and in fact anything above specialization) is pretty much wasted, so it would be nice to modify Mazzy and Korgan (and, since this is the TOB forum, Saervok) to be a little more effective and diverse:


Mazzy now (when recruited at level 8):
***** Short Bow, * Short Sword (I believe she specializes in Short Sword at level 9)

Possible alternate Mazzy (level 8):
** Short Bow, ** Short Sword, ** Hammer
This keeps Mazzy as a Short Bow / Short Sword expert, and adds a blunt weapon proficiency that would be suitable for a small race. Make it Flail/Morningstar for the better item choices though, and whatever the choice there's plenty of time to develop her with whatever weapon style you want.


Korgan now (when recruited at level 8):
***** Axe, * Hammer (I believe he specializes in Hammer at level 9)

Possible alternate Korgan (level 8):
** Axe, ** Hammer, ** Two Weapon Style

Keeps Korgan's Axe and Hammer expertise. If anyone's fit for dual-wielding, a 19 CON Dwarven Berserker should fit the bill.


Saervok now (when recruited at level 15):
***** Two Handed Sword, ** Two Handed Weapon Style, * Halberd, * Crossbow

Possible alternate Saervok (level 15):
** Two Handed Sword, ** Two Handed Weapon Style, ** Halberd, ** Crossbow, * Quarterstaff

A Quarterstaff may seem like an odd fit for Saervok, but it's a two-handed blunt weapon that benefits from his two-handed weapon style. Otherwise, this is just rounding out his existing proficiencies.


Valygar: Have you noticed that Valygar's enemy race is Golems but he doesn't have a single weapon proficiency in a blunt weapon? That's definitely something to fix.

Valygar now (when recruited at level 8):
** Katana, ** Long Bow, ** Spear, ** Two Weapon Style (Ranger bonus)

Possible alternate Valygar (level 8):
** Katana, ** Long Bow, ** Club, ** Two Weapon Style

Gotta keep the Katana since he has the family blade, and Long Bow is his only ranged proficiency, so despite its appropriateness for a Ranger, Spear has to go. Club seems the best blunt replacement, providing another natural / easily improvisable weapon that will also give him a chance against Clay Golems and can even be dual wielded. Could also go with Quarterstaff as another "natural" option, but Mace, Hammer, and Flail/Morningstar seem too out of flavor for Valygar.


The character whose proficiencies I wouldn't change even with an editor award goes to Minsc.
Minsc now (level 7):
** Two Handed Sword, ** Mace, ** Long Bow, ** Two Weapon Style (Ranger bonus)

If nothing else, Minsc is the ideal Irenicus dungeon escort, able to serve as front-line Mace/Shield tank, front-line Two-Handed Sword or Mace/Mace evil-smasher, back-line Long Bow support, or even stealth-mode Long Bow sniper.

Now whether he should be a Ranger or not is another matter. He would definitely be a fun/appropriate Barbarian or Berserker. However, I've always been of the belief that his special bonding relationship with Boo makes the most sense when you think of him as a Ranger. (The mod Xen mentioned I believe allows you to make Minsc a Barbarian or Berserker, as well as offering many other options for other characters.)

[Link]

Why change Sarevok's proficiency with the Two Handed Sword? He is MADE to wield a two-handed sword! Bear in mind that the Sword of Chaos is two-handed (and that's Sarevok's sword)

[Klorox]

its your game, do what you want. personally, the only time i ever mess around with proficiencies is if i played with that npc in bgi (for instance, I had minsc using axes and jaheira using daggers, so i will swap some proficiencies).

i dont even like doing that, because those characters are not mine, they are NPCs. this goes doubly for the npcs that are provided by the game and i have never used before. just because you like valygar to use hammers (for example) doesn't mean that he knows how to use them before you ever meet him. just have him start learning when you do pick him up.

Originally posted by Klutz: Anomen: He's actually missing 4 proficiency slots because he is a dual-class, not a multiclass. (It's possible to waste 3 out of those 4 slots, but he couldn't possibly have wasted the 4th.)

anomen could have spent these slots on non-bludgeoning weapons, and thats why they are gone. as a matter of fact, one of his banters includes him boasting about how he drove his spear through a monsters back.

[Klutz]

Originally posted by Link: Why change Sarevok's proficiency with the Two Handed Sword? He is MADE to wield a two-handed sword! Bear in mind that the Sword of Chaos is two-handed (and that's Sarevok's sword)

Certainly not eliminated, just reduced from grandmastery to specialization. While grandmastery is nice from a flavor perspective, unless you use the grandmastery mod it's just not practical to go beyond specialization. That's my only rationale for proposing alternate proficiencies for him, Mazzy, and Korgan.

Flavorwise, I agree that all three are more interesting as grandmasters in their weapons of choice. Well, maybe except Mazzy, who as a Paladin wannabe might have been more likely to pick up a little more short range weapon skill, but that could go either way, since a halfling warrior certainly would understand the value of staying out of reach of larger, stronger opponents. And it's moot if you pick her up at 9th level or above, because at that point she's already specialized in short sword.

Originally posted by Klorox: quote: Originally posted by Klutz: Anomen: He's actually missing 4 proficiency slots because he is a dual-class, not a multiclass. (It's possible to waste 3 out of those 4 slots, but he couldn't possibly have wasted the 4th.)

anomen could have spent these slots on non-bludgeoning weapons, and thats why they are gone. as a matter of fact, one of his banters includes him boasting about how he drove his spear through a monsters back. [/QUOTE]Would have been pretty convoluted, but possible. Let's see:

Level 7 Fighter: ** Mace, ** Spear, ** Sling
Level 1 Cleric: * Mace, * Sling (Spear lost permanently here.)
Level 4 Cleric: * Sword and Shield Style
Level 8 Cleric: * Hammer (Regains ** in Mace and Sling, permanently losing the two points he spent in them at Level 1 Cleric.)

Final result as level 7/8 Fighter/Cleric dualclass: ** Mace, ** Sling, * Hammer, * Sword and Shield Style

OK, maybe not as convoluted as I thought, and of course there's lots of ways of arriving at that final result. So I was wrong about not being able to waste all 4.

Of course, Anomen's bigger rules problem is that he's an illegal dual-class in the first place (12 WIS instead of 17), but once I realized how good his proficiencies could have been I just shake my head every time I think about it.

[ 01-05-2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Klutz ]

[Armen]

Originally posted by Xen: For altering NPC's check out the Level 1 NPC's mod. It was made by Gerhard Blucher.

this sounds interesting but i can't find it - any clues?

ta