grand mastery - fair or not

[Rockstar]

Hi everyone,

Could somebody please show the exact tables of how grand mastery has been changed between BG and BG2.

Does anybody here consider this cheating? My opinion is no because it only effects fighters who deserve to be elite in close combat and should be more superior than a paladin or a ranger at combat than what they are normally made. Besides the BG rule are what the D&D say it should be.

Anybody else think different?

[Zink Whistlefly]

BG1:

* = no penalties
** = +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +0.5 ApR
*** = +3 to hit, +3 to damage, +0.5 ApR
**** = +3 to hit, +4 to damage, +0.5 ApR
***** = +3 to hit, +5 to damage, +1.5 ApR

BG2:

* = no penalties
** = +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +0.5 ApR
*** = +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +0.5 ApR
**** = +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +0.5 ApR, -1 weapon speed
***** = +2 to hit, +3 to damage, +0.5 ApR, -1 weapon speed

I personally don't make much of a problem with the weapon proficiencies being nerfed somewhat, mostly due to the bonus proficiencies that BG2 allowed for. Dual wielding wasn't possible in BG1, and 2 handed weapon style and single weapon style have the +5% chance to crit benefits amongst others. It's swings and roundabouts really.

[True_Moose]

It's a personal choice. In vanilla SoA, the spectrum swings severely towards magical power. Unnerfed proficiencies helps out fighters. However, in ToB it swings back. Eventually the bonuses aren't that special, especially when you consider strength-boosting items and spells like haste.

[Rockstar]

so in vanilla BG2 and with altered grand mastery BG2, what is the max number of standard attacks a fighter can get using only grand mastery for each hand when dual wielding? ie without hasting or whirlwind effects.

Also, what would these be with the addition of items like braces or other means? (i think there are TOB braces that add 1/2 an attack per round?)

[ 02-21-2006, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Rockstar ]

[Zink Whistlefly]

Attacks are capped at 5 per round iirc in BG2 (excluding haste, so you could technically get 6 ApR with haste, or 10 with improved haste I suppose, but I'm not sure about that).

Number of attacks with the offhand weapon is fixed at one, so proficiencies will only help you with THAC0 and damage here (i.e. a level 7 fighter dual wielding long swords with grand mastery (original) in long swords would attack 3 times per round. If that same fighter dropped the off hand long sword and used a short sword for which he has spent no proficiency points, he would still attack 3 times per round).

The maximum attacks per round with the original BG2 grand mastery from dual wielding would therefore be 1 (main hand base) + 1 (0.5 bonuses from levels 7 and 13) + 0.5 (weapon proficiencies) + 1 (offhand) = 7 attacks over 2 rounds (or 3.5 ApR). Certain offhand weapons (such as Belm and Kudane) add an additional attack per round each, but if used together under the above circumstances we would hit the 5 ApR unbuffed cap.

The maximum attacks therefore with the grand mastery patch would be as above, but with a further +1 from grand mastery = 9/2.

EDIT: With the bracers of extra-ordinairy specialisation, we would attacks 4 times per round with original grand mastery, and 5 times per round with the patched grand mastery. Since we've hit the 5 ApR cap with the latter, further attacks from Belm and/or Kudane would have no affect.

[ 02-21-2006, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Zink Whistlefly ]

[Rockstar]

thankyou so much for that. That was a huge help [img]smile.gif[/img]

you're a legend!

cheers

[ister]

Originally posted by True_Moose: [QBHowever, in ToB it swings back. Eventually the bonuses aren't that special, especially when you consider strength-boosting items and spells like haste. [/QB]

While it is certaily true that the extra +1 to hit and +2 damage make very little difference, the same is not true of the extra attack. As zink points out, even when GM is the weakest you go from 3.5 to 4.5 attacks per round, which is pretty significant whether you're trying to get through stoneskins or just pile on damage. And in any tough battle you'll be using improved haste so the difference will be 9 attacks per round to 7 attacks per round. Two extra attacks make a big difference.

Put another way the GM patch is like giving every fighter Belm. Belm is one of the best weapons in the game - you've souped up your fighters quite a bit.

[Zink Whistlefly]

Originally posted by Rockstar: thankyou so much for that. That was a huge help [img]smile.gif[/img] you're a legend! cheers

You're welcome [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Morgeruat]

Since you asked about the AD&D methodology involved in the GM rule:

By spending an extra proficiency slot on a weapon, a single-class fighter character can become a specialist. A fighter may only specialize in one weapon at a time. If she wishes to change her specialization to a different weapon, she must spend two extra proficiency slots to become a specialist in the new weapon, and loses all benefits of specializing in the previous one (although she is still proficient with it and always will be). Any more changes cost three slots each, so it’s a good idea to pick one weapon and stick with it.
Melee Weapons
Specializing in a melee weapon provides a character with two main benefits: first of all, he gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon; secondly, he gains an extra attack once per two rounds. A 1st-level fighter normally attacks once per round, but a 1st-level long sword specialist attacks three times per two rounds.
Missile Weapons
This category includes slings and thrown weapons. Generally, specialists gain an increased rate of fire with these weapons and a +1 bonus to attack rolls. If a character specializes in a weapon that can be used either for melee or as a missile weapon (spears, daggers, hand axes, etc.), he gains the melee benefit described above when using the weapon for hand-to-hand combat and the increased rate of fire for using the weapon for ranged attacks.
Bows
Characters who specialize in the bow gain a +1 bonus to hit at any range (normal range penalties still apply, of course), an increased rate of fire, and a new range category: point-blank. Point-blank is any shot of 30 feet or less. At point-blank range, the character gains a +2 to damage. In addition, bow specialists can automatically fire first before initiative is rolled if they have an arrow readied.
Crossbows
Specialists with crossbows gain a +1 bonus to hit at any range, an increased rate of fire, and a point-blank range category, just like archers. For crossbows, point-blank range extends out to 60 feet. Crossbow specialists have a +2 bonus to damage rolls against any target at point-blank range. In addition, they share the archer’s quick-shot benefit when covering an enemy.
Firearms
Firearms specialists are often referred to as marksmen or sharpshooters. Specializing in a firearm provides a character with three benefits: first of all, he has a better rate of fire than a nonspecialist; second, he gains a +1 bonus to hit at any range; and last, there is a 50% chance that any misfire he rolls while attacking with the firearm is simply a miss instead.

Specialist Attacks per Round


Level of Specialist
Weapon 1–6 7–12 13+
Melee Weapons 3/2 2/1 5/2
Blowgun 2/1 5/2 3/1
Bolas 1/1 3/2 2/1
Bows 2/1 3/1 4/1
Hand Crossbow 1/1 3/2 2/1
Light Crossbow 1/1 3/2 2/1
Heavy Crossbow 1/2 1/1 3/2
Stonebow 1/1 3/2 2/1
Repeating Crossbow 2/1 5/2 3/1
Thrown Dagger/Knife 3/1 4/1 5/1
Thrown Dart 4/1 5/1 6/1
Firearms
Arquebus 1/3 1/2 1/1
Matchlocks 1/2 1/1 3/2
Snaplocks 1/1 3/2 2/1
Wheelock Belt Pistol 1/1 3/2 2/1
Wheelock Horse Pistol 1/2 1/1 3/2
Javelin 3/2 2/1 5/2
Sling 3/2 2/1 5/2
Staff Sling 1/1 3/2 2/1
Shuriken 3/1 4/1 5/1
Other Thrown Weapons 1/1 3/2 2/1


Weapon Mastery
There are swordsmen, and then there are swordsmen. A warrior who devotes his life to the study of martial combat and the characteristics of a single type of weapon can become a weapon master—a fighter whose precision, quickness, and skill are virtually unequaled anywhere.
Weapon masters are rare characters. Only single-classed fighters can ever achieve weapon mastery, and even then they do so with time, study, and sacrifice. To achieve mastery in a weapon, a character must first specialize in the use of that weapon. Then, at any time after he reaches 5th level, he can spend another proficiency slot to become a weapon master. He can continue to devote proficiency slots to the study of his chosen weapon, but can’t progress faster than the rate at which he gains new weapon proficiency slots. So, a character who becomes a master at 5th level couldn’t acquire his second slot of mastery until 6th level, his third until 9th level, and so on.

Generally, only weapons that require some skill to handle or that have a history of cultural identification are chosen by weapon masters. Swords of any kind are the most common weapons mastered, followed by bows and then axes or spears. Polearms, crossbows, and firearms are the subject of weapon mastery only in rare cases. The DM can decide that a weapon isn’t appropriate for mastery at his discretion, but he should do so before a character chooses to specialize in it.
Effects of Mastery
If a fighter spends another proficiency slot on a melee weapon he already specializes in, his attack and damage bonuses increase to +3 and +3, respectively. For bows and crossbows, his point-blank bonuses increase to +3/+3 as with melee weapons, and he gains an additional +1 to hit at all other range categories, for a total of +2. (Remember, this bonus doesn’t take range modifiers into account, so the archer has a total of +2 at short, +0 at medium, and –3 at long range, if the penalties are factored in.)

A marksman who chooses to master a firearm gains an additional +1 bonus to hit, cumulative with the effects of specialization for a total bonus of +2 to hit. As with bows and crossbows, this is still reduced by range penalties. In addition, the marksman ignores heavy armor at all ranges as if he were firing at a short-range target.

High Mastery
By spending a second slot on mastery, a character can become a high master. By this time, the character has spent four slots on a single weapon and is at least 6th level. High masters increase the speed factor of their chosen weapon by one category; for example, a slow weapon in the hands of a high master is automatically considered to be of average speed (-2 speed factor). High masters also score critical hits on rolls of 19 or 20 that hit their opponent.

High masters who specialize in bows, crossbows, slings, or firearms gain a new range category: extreme range. For all weapons, extreme range is 1/3 farther than long range. For example, if a weapon has a normal maximum range of 180 yards, in the hands of a master it can shoot 240 (1/3x18=6, 18+6=24) squares. Extreme range shots have a –10 penalty to hit before adjustments are made for the effects of mastery.


Grand Mastery
High masters who spend one more slot on learning their weapon of choice can become grand masters. Grand masters are capable of feats of swordplay that border on the fantastic. Grand masters gain one additional attack per round above and beyond a specialist’s rate of attacks for their level, so a 12th-level melee weapon grand master would attack 3 times per round with his weapon of choice.
Grand masters also increase the amount of damage when they employ their chosen weapon. The weapon’s base damage die is increased to the next greater die size against all opponents. A long sword thus inflicts 1d10/1d20 points of damage in the hands of a grand master (normally does 1d8/1d12). If the weapon causes multiple dice of damage, all of them are increased. Thus, a two-handed sword in the hands of a grand master inflicts 3d8 points of damage on large targets. Needless to say, grand masters are extremely dangerous opponents.

[Kyrvias]

*whistle*

That about sums it all up

[ 02-24-2006, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Kyrvias ]