fair or unfair.. spoils ahead

[Harkoliar]

This is a little long so bear with me.

well some of you guys may think its unfair, or not. Anyway, the reason I brought this up is because i have the following mods installed:

1) shapeshifter rebalance
2) acension
3) tactics
4) spell 50/cleric progression as well
5) baldurdash
6) monster summoning cap removal
7) and a whole lot of others(mods) not relavant to this topic

I have just started replaying again after a year of not playing. im using core rules (so there is friendly fire). I firmly believe in the rule of not resting before the big battle rather resting before starting a quest. An example would be in the De'Arnese Hold (spelling?). I mean, if ever it was a "real life" fantasy scenario, your enemies will not be waiting around but patrolling the keep for intruders when they "discovered" thier companions dead bodies. That is why I try to save my wizards/clerics spells as much as possible, and rest when they really need it. (Like when my wizard/cleric/druid have no more spells or such).

Another thing I firmly believe is that Wizards in bg2 and tob is insanely powerful that is why I removed the limit spell progression with the spell 50. I believe that wizards can do god-like things with thier magic. The mod affects BOTH enemy and allies with the spell cap off. That is making things fair, although the problem is, that with tactics/ascension installed, the wizards/yuanti mages became much more dangerous.. very dangerous. I mean, they already have contigency spells then have predefined tactics which are already dangerous, then the spell cap removal will make them very powerful against my helpless characters. Same goes with my cleric as well.

So here in my quest to find out your opinions if this is fair or not let me tell you my story first in my quest of de'arnese hold..

My characters are fairly weak, just around 10-12 (do note that my shapeshifter was only in werewolf form and NOT in greater werewolf form) when doing the keep hold. The spirit trolls were powerful that it takes all of my party members to kill one troll because of its regeneration.

In the quest in clearing out the trolls in the keep, since my wizards are not strong enough to cast the higer levels, I opted for on turning tide to my favor with summoning monsters to help me. (note, monster cap removal comes in play here). My only trump card was my shapeshifter summoning greater werebears.

In the final battle with torgal, I was faced with 6 umberhulks, 8 yuan-ti mages, 2-3 spirit trolls and torgal. All of them hasted, contingency, stoneskin invisibility with the spell cap remover off and tactics as well. Then the yuanti mages can summon a horde of skeletons as well. All i had was summoning nymphs, decent equipment (as you can see in the picture below), buff spells and werebears.

Party:
druidic/socerer --- kit - staff +2, throwing dagger (forgot the name)
shapshifter- werewolf form only with cloak of protection
jahera - scimitar +1, mail of the dead, shield + 2
minsc - with lilacor, flail of ages
aerie - sling + 2
yoshi- tugan bow with flaming arrows

Since my characters were only lvl 10-12, I had a very limited amount of spells in my arsenal such as cloudkill, magic missles, sabon spray, insect plague. Very hard to target torgal because of his invisibility. Cloudkill and insect plague helped alot against the mages but because of thier contingecy i still got hurt. My party got 3 nyphs and 4 greater werebears to help me out. (plus an air elemental that turned on me)

You can see aftermath of the battle, with resurrecting misc, and healing a fair bunch of us with potions and stuff, you can see the pile of corpses in the picture below.



so do you think it was fair in using the greater werebears? do you think its fair installing my mods in the first place with tactics/acension/baldurdash/spell 50?? I mean, shapeshifter rebalancing give me the power to counteract what these mods give me. Also in the latter stages, my greater werewolf will also have a hard time since some monsters are only able to be hit with a +5 weapons. These mods installed also give me a sense of balance and a real feel of the fantasy world. what do you think? fair or unfair?

opinons, criticism? Own suggestions in killing torgal with what i gave you? without using my greater werebears? (the only suggestion i will not accept is coming back for him since that is not "realistic" ). oh yeah, anti-cheese is installed here as well since i cant even close the doors and cast cloudkill and hide till the spells wear off since spell50 is installed you know...


btw, i did want to show off the carnage picture [img]smile.gif[/img] . My computer actually came halt to a stop with all the cloudkills, insect plague and 20+ monsters/summons going and casting spells about all at the same time. I only heard like sounds for 10 seconds and a frozen screen because of it. My computer was 1.8ghz, 512 ram with a gforce fx 5200 video card. amazing my windows 2000 didnt crash with it. .

[ 08-08-2004, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Hank Parsons]

Congratulations on winning the battle! That is a tough one, at that level. It's up to you how you want to play the game, and clearly you know your options.

Look at the bears standing around snorting in your screenshot post-battle. ?-)

The fromage was greater werebears, and cloudkill. Since you were prevented from the closing-doors trick, cloudkill was lesser cheese. Werebear summons, as you know, are overpowered. So are the enemies you've installed, so if you want to fight fire w/ fire, it's the player's choice. Could you beat this battle without those spells? Reload and try it.

I don't think a Level 10 party should be able to re-take the Keep from the monsters (in an RP sense). I think the monsters that invaded the keep should be stronger. You should have trained more (gained xp) and equip'd up a bit more, before trying to take out the don of trolls. I'd say come back later.

You should have a way to remove invisibility repeatedly - true sight, detect invisible, oracle...

[ 08-08-2004, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[Harkoliar]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: Congratulations on winning the battle! That is a tough one, at that level. It's up to you how you want to play the game, and clearly you know your options. Look at the bears standing around snorting in your screenshot post-battle. ?-) The fromage was greater werebears, and cloudkill. Since you were prevented from the closing-doors trick, cloudkill was lesser cheese. Werebear summons, as you know, are overpowered. So are the enemies you've installed, so if you want to fight fire w/ fire, it's the player's choice. Could you beat this battle without those spells? Reload and try it. I don't think a Level 10 party should be able to re-take the Keep from the monsters (in an RP sense). I think the monsters that invaded the keep should be stronger. You should have trained more (gained xp) and equip'd up a bit more, before trying to take out the don of trolls. I'd say come back later. You should have a way to remove invisibility repeatedly - true sight, detect invisible, oracle...

yeah, thats true that a lvl 10-12 party should not try and retake the keep however, as you recall, nalia did not want to say what the enimes were until you got there. So, if you went off and refused to take the keep first and come back after a couple of weeks to gain experience and leave them stranded to fend for themselves then it would not be realistic dont you think?

i did try without the greater werebears twice. they ripped my party apart in 10 seconds with thier command sleep charm making me helpless. confusion did not help as well. with me having invisibility and buffs didnt help at all. For some weird reason, non of my cleric/mage/druid didnt have any detect invisibility that time except for one scroll which was pretty grim on my end.

[Harkoliar]

oh yeah: the "ironic" thing is the message my computer gave me at my screen below. funny isnt it?

[Derfel Cadarn]

I was about to say something about that, hehe, well, it just depends on the Tactics you know.. hehe, damn comp. Anyway, I don't know much about Mods, but I've seen many players mentioningthat tactics Mod, what is it about?

[Harkoliar]

tactics makes the whole bg2 game insane for NOOB and challenging for veterans. if you think your character is an all godly at bg2 and you finished the game, you should try the tactics. it makes it more challenging for you.

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by Harkoliar: i did try without the greater werebears twice. they ripped my party apart in 10 seconds with thier command sleep charm making me helpless. confusion did not help as well. with me having invisibility and buffs didnt help at all.

That says it, for the cheese of Werebears. Bears you summoned could win battles your entire party couldn't. Summons should be subject to your commands partly because they are weaker than you (although differently skilled, which is their utility).

As for the Role Playing justification... what you said would be fine on a normal game ('Must rescue Nalia today, can't wait for next week'). On a Tactics game, the player knows it's Tactics-hard, but the characters at least realize monsters are more deadly. They would probably prepare more before inflitrating a monster-filled castle. By 10th level your characters should know very well, they have to prepare for Invisibles.

You mentioned 2 weeks, but you need not take that long to return to Nalia's. You only need about 2 days to gain experience, and visit a store to buy the potions and scrolls you need (Oracle, for example).

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I see nothing wrong with using ALL the weapons you have at your disposal - especially when tackling one of the "Tactics Improved Bosses". Add in the fact that you aren't resting after each minor battle to regain your full complement of spells and I would say you have every right to use the werebears.

Heck, I would say you had every right to use a Greater Deva if you had the means to summon one.

Almost ALL Tactics Battles will kick your butt the first few times you try them. The enemies are much tougher and are specifically designed to counter or eliminate many of the former tactics that used to work. But experience often turns these fights into a challenge rather than an exercise in frustration.

My first few encounters with Improved Illyich were horrible. It took me an entire weekend of trying to beat him the first time, and that was WITH the cheese of closing doors to isolate the characters one at a time. Now, however, I've beaten Improved Illyich 2.0 with a Solo Skald using only the equipment found in the Chateau - and not even using Acorns until my final battle with the Glabrezu (and then, only because I didn't realize my Minute Meteors would have taken him down).

The Spirit Trolls in De'Arnise beat the daylights out of my full party last time through. I really do not relish the idea of facing them now with a Solo Bard, but I'm also sure I will eventually find a way to beat them.

Besides, I've always said here that it doesn't matter what other players think of your gaming style - it only matters what you think of it. If you feel justified in using the werebears (and it certainly sounds like you were since you tried it without them), then it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks.

Still, I offer you my CONGRATULATIONS on winning a very tough battle and I give you an Official Barbarian Salute in honor of your well-earned victory.

[img]graemlins/barbarian.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/barbarian.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/barbarian.gif[/img]
Official Barbarian Salute

[Harkoliar]

thanks cerek! .

Hank: ------------------------------------ On a Tactics game, the player knows it's Tactics-hard, but the characters at least realize monsters are more deadly. They would probably prepare more before inflitrating a monster-filled castle. By 10th level your characters should know very well, they have to prepare for Invisibles. You mentioned 2 weeks, but you need not take that long to return to Nalia's. You only need about 2 days to gain experience, and visit a store to buy the potions and scrolls you need (Oracle, for example).

your right about that. however i was thinking about the traveling time and such as well that is a factor. and to be honest, i didnt remember tactics being so hard since the last time i played nearly a year ago. lol!

[Assassin]

My take, though it may be different than others... Well, first of all, let me tell you congratulations on beating Imp Keep without resting during it (which means you beat the ground floor trolls without many summons; very nice job there). And also, let me tell you that no one can convince you to change your mind except yourself. That said...

Another thing I firmly believe is that Wizards in bg2 and tob is insanely powerful that is why I removed the limit spell progression with the spell 50. I believe that wizards can do god-like things with thier magic. The mod affects BOTH enemy and allies with the spell cap off. That is making things fair, although the problem is, that with tactics/ascension installed, the wizards/yuanti mages became much more dangerous.. very dangerous. I mean, they already have contigency spells then have predefined tactics which are already dangerous, then the spell cap removal will make them very powerful against my helpless characters. Same goes with my cleric as well.

The thing I don't like about the Spells-50 mod is that it basically makes all Fighters obselete. After you hit a certain level, who cares about how much melee power you have? Your Wizards will be destryoing things with a single blast while the fighters of both sides are futilely trying to spend 3 rounds getting through a Stoneskin.

Also, this gives more of an advantage to the PC than you might think. Despite it giving the bonuses to both sides, the PC has the advantage of a living, thinking human being at the helm. It empowers offensive spells more than defensive spells (the short-lasting def spells will be short-lasting, the long lasting def spells will be long-lasting, but the damage will increase quite a bit more), which in turn empowers the PC. Because the PC can and will launch three successive ADHW. The AI won't. Even Tactics AI.

It also goes against my belief that Wizards should not be able to wave their hands, say 'abra kadabra', and kill fighters with a single shot. If that was to be expected, then there would be no point to having fighters at all.

[quote] I mean, they already have contigency spells then have predefined tactics which are already dangerous, then the spell cap removal will make them very powerful against my helpless characters. [quote]

Sepll cap removal really doesn't come into play until later on in the game. All spells are originally capped at level 20 except for a few exceptions, and most Tactics enemies are not level 20 yet, and neither is your party.

monster cap removal comes in play here

? Monster cap removal? Spell-50 doesn't change the monster summoning limit...

I firmly believe in the rule of not resting before the big battle rather resting before starting a quest. An example would be in the De'Arnese Hold (spelling?). I mean, if ever it was a "real life" fantasy scenario, your enemies will not be waiting around but patrolling the keep for intruders when they "discovered" thier companions dead bodies.

Minor rebuttal: That's why you leave guards in a real-life fantasy scenario [img]tongue.gif[/img] . And the 'you have been awakened by enemies and must defend yourself' also sort of replaces them finding you. However, I suppose one could also penalize oneself further by imposing a 1 round turn in which the party cannot do anything against those monsters, to show that you're waking up. Just a minor point.

Greater Werebears (is this before or after the nerf?) before the nerf are insanely overpowered. They can take on the Imp Torgal by themselves, and with a bit of help from the PC and the party, they even win quite handily. (Slow, Haste, Chaotic Commands, Bless, stuff like that). You'll notice that not even one Werebear died in the fight. Why? Because of their 6 hp/sec regen. The also do incredible damage, have great elemental resists, and have something like 50% Magic Resistance. Overpowered for a level 6 spell? Yes, I think so. -_-;; Again, I'm basing this on stuff before the nerf.

Also in the latter stages, my greater werewolf will also have a hard time since some monsters are only able to be hit with a +5 weapons

How many? Like 1 or 2? --;;

I mean, shapeshifter rebalancing give me the power to counteract what these mods give me.

... That's like saying "Give me a challenge for this game. Oh, and give me something to take away that challenge." What's the point of getting the challenge in the first place if you're going to try and take it away?

Well, that's my take on this. Flame, debate, or generally tell me I'm full of crap. I'm done for now.

ADD]

* Shifter Rebalance: Animal Summoning is now much weaker. In particular, the Greater Wearberes are now a 22nd level summon and the default behavior is to summon Normal Weaberes. They have two-thirds the hit-dice and attacks, but most notably their regeneration is much slower. The spell description is not changed because this fix is not finalized -- I encourage comment.

Well, apply my comments as to the Greater Bearweres as if they apply to your game since you were only level 10-12, and you have Greater Bearweres...

[img]redface.gif[/img] I reread the whole thing, and it sounds I'm ranting against you. I didn't intend that. :S

[ 08-08-2004, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]