Mod Discussion, Realism VS Tactical Enjoyment

[Jerr Conner]

I couldn't sleep last night and ended up pondering Westley Weimer's Solaufein Mod. Specifically, the enhanced Mae'Var and Torgal parts of the Mod.

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Let's start off with the Torgal one. Anyone who has played it knows that there's tons of added guards around Torgal. Tactically-speaking, and I mean in the sense that someone plays it for fun to try new Tactics, it makes sense. It is more challenging, though personally I find that it's way to hard for a Starting Party (And if anyone here is like me, if they're playing a fighter, that's the first place they'd want to go). It takes me a few ten reloads, even after beating it a few times, but I digress...

Realistically-speaking, in the linear sense, it doesn't jive. Torgal obviously didn't have too many guards with him because the major portion of his force was guarding the castle above. He had five Umber Hulks, which aren't too easy to fight to begin with (With the whole confusion spells working on their side), guarding him at least, though he wouldn't expect them lured away so easily. Also, he was interogating Lord D'Arnise, so why would he have so many guards around him when he'd most likely want privacy?

Now on to Improved Mae'Var. He was originally surrounded by guards, however if I remember correctly Mae'Var wasn't a Thief/Mage. Tactically-speaking, it's a good battle with him as a Thief/Mage and a Cleric of Talos in employ.

Realistically-speaking, Mae'Var is only easy to beat (When fighting Normal Mae'Var) because he was so arrogant and sure that he was powerful. He never expected Edwin to betray him nor did he expect the new recruits to do so. Also, other than the fact that Improved Mae'Var is very hard to beat using a Starting Party, my only other pet peeve there is that he doesn't have the Short Sword of Backstabbing when your Thief is trying to get the Stronghold in the Dock District. (For those who don't know, AND WANT TO BE SPOILED, when a Thief works for Renal, his reward is the Stronghold along with money, instead of money with a Short Sword of Backstabbing, which Mae'Var was supposed to have on him)

Now keep in mind, this isn't me griping about the Mod, considering I like it. I just thought I'd start a discussion. Hopefully, though, this won't generate flaming :C)

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[shamrock_uk]

I did indeed find it too hard at the start, had to come back later with my solo mage, but the fact that all of his force was not defending the walls does not seem that unreasonable.

Consider that TorGal simply wouldn't anticipate somebody to retake the castle. The soldiers outside have been thrashed and are no threat, and the De'Arnise's clearly have no other powerful allies (otherwise Nalia wouldn't have to beg for help from random strangers).

An army attempting to siege the castle would
a) be really obvious arriving and give plenty of time to summon TorGal and minions up
b) even if the lookouts were dozy, a successful siege would still take days presumbably as the drawbridge is up, again, plenty of time
c) he didn't know about the secret entrance and thus didn't consider any other outcome that would require a greater defensive presence outside.

As for MaeVar, the fact that he's fully 'as he was meant to be' is more than enough compensation! I never play with short swords for my thiefs so not a problem for me, but you do make a valid point [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Just a short note.

Mae'Var is a Thief/Mage. It was just that because he was wearing armour in the default version, he could not cast spells.

Real inconsistencies would be like the powergaming of Solaufein's stats as compared to the default game version.

[shamrock_uk]

Still, i have to say, for all people criticise the Sola mod for powergaming, it taught me a whole new dimension of playing the game. I'd charged through it many times before and I never used to bother with buffing or protection scrolls because I always seemed to manage.

The fact Sola kept dying on me whilst I kept reading how powerful he was made me make proper use of his buffs and has since changed the way I play. Whilst I don't like to use auto-buffing scripts and I prefer to buff during a fight now, (just seems more realistic really) it has opened my eyes to (yet another [img]smile.gif[/img] ) dimension of play.

In a sense he's only as overpowered as the player wishes him to be IMO. I do agree with your point about changing the stats, but with the right equipment and protection spells active a couple of points here and there really doesn't make that much difference?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Ah... then I suppose his quest sword "doesn't make that much difference" too then? A character with 10 DEX as compared to one with 18 DEX is not really that disadvantaged then?

Is it?

[Jerr Conner]

Dundee: Thanks for the clarification. However, I did forget to mention that it seems impossible that he'd have some of those high level spells available early on, and the thieves seem to have an unlimited supply of invisibility potions :C)

shamrock_uk: Great points on Torgal. It seems he suffers from being too comfortable as well. Hehe I'm still peeved about no "Shadow's Blade" because my thieves are usually halflings. The first time I had Sola he kept dying on me too.

I think another unrealistic part of Sola is vamped Sola. Unless vampires get an unlimited spell supply, I swear he kept casting all of those protection spells! With that one, I always have to cheat!

The worst part is Drizzt always dies. He's not supposed to die! Hehe big Drizzt fan here :C)

I guess I'm a little hard on my favorite mod because when I RP in BGII, I like to do it as realistically as possible...

EDIT: Really, when your characters reach a certain level, it's not all too hard. Also, Weimer's extra nightly tactical encounters help with money and leveling up. Although, the key is to simply kill the clerics, druids, and mages as fast as you can ;C)

[ 02-09-2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Jerr Conner ]

[Jerr Conner]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Ah... then I suppose his quest sword "doesn't make that much difference" too then? A character with 10 DEX as compared to one with 18 DEX is not really that disadvantaged then? Is it?

Last time I played with Sola, I didn't get the quest sword at all :C(

I was toying with the idea of making a "That other Solaufein Mod", but dismissed it as I really want to work on the Mod that me and the BG Mod Group have seemed to "abandon" (Hopefully I'll have plenty of time this summer).

[wally p]

well, here are some thoughts I have on the Sola Mod and the Torgal encounter.


I remember that the reason why Torgal was improved was firstly to try and discourage parties just out of the first dungeon from getting and assembling one of the nastiest and most powerful weapons in the game--Flail of the Ages. Incidentally, this is also the reasoning behind Improved Guarded Compound. If I am to understand Wes's philosophy, he would rather make really powerful items and/or abilities available and make hard challenges to offset their powers rather than nerf everything.

For example, the Flail of the Ages and the Celestial Fury aren't toned down at all--they still retain their complete ferocity (in the item upgrade mod, Fury even can be made into +5!), but now, the process that one needs to go through to get them is much much harder, offsetting the advantage of these weapons. In other words, if your party is strong enough to beat the challenges in order to get these weapons, you are strong enough not to need them and thus, the weapons don't unbalance your power by unduly increasing your killing power.

The same goes for Sola. If you choose to play with him in your party, there are a series of quite difficult encounters that one wouldn't otherwise face, making him "worth it."

Tsuki and the Moonray are both incredibly powerful things that come with Sola, but in order to get them, you need to face some pretty heinous stuff--and honestly, is it really that powerful when compared to some of the uber-items that are in the game proper? I'm thinking FoA +5, Foebane +5, Crom Faeyr, etc.

I also tend to the think that most stats are mostly a matter of convenience given the enormous number of stat-improving equipment. For example, you don't need a high Cha at all--it's just kind of tedious always switching rings before talking to people. Likewise, Int isn't really important because there are potions of genius to make scribing scrolls infallible, since there is no restriction on getting to level 9 spells based on stats. There are enough strength modifiers out there for an eternity--as well as a belt that modifies Con once per day. There is just one set of dex gauntlets, but I can only think of 1 NPC that could really use it, so it's not exactly highly coveted.

I think that even if you put Sola's dex right back where it was, it still wouldn't really matter--just give him the dex gloves and you're all set to go. Even beyond that, his buffs take care of his AC so on some level, it doesn't even really matter what his dex is after a while.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Offensively no, but defensively, yes. If convenience was a valid excuse, then there would be nothing to prevent players from bumping everything to the max and create a Ring that confers all manner of undispellable defensive spells just because it would be more convenient.

A char with 18 DEX and the GoES is much more powerful than one with only the GoDex.

It is undeniable that Mods adds to the lifespan of a game, but done in an unbalanced manner or in an illogical way, it affects the integrity of the game.

To each his/her own, and no doubt there will be many supporters of such Mods, but personally, I cannot endorse them to others save a few (components too).

[shamrock_uk]

Sorry Dundee, I didn't realise he'd changed it by 8 points! Crikey, i stand corrected. I seem to remember that the sword isn't a non-removable item though, so the player is not forced to use it. Although i suppose if role playing properly then one would have to use it. Ah well, as you say, to each his own. Do you know offhand if the DX bonus came at the expense of other stats?

Jerr: Unfortunately the game i had Sola in stopped at the end of SoA to make way for my current solo one so i haven't had the eclipse encounter yet. Re. undead Sola, having looked at his scripts, a lot of the initial spells he throws up do not have to be memorised (esp the SI ones). Possibly this leaves him room to cast them the second time.

And the 'second wind' thing is v hard, but i think that goes away if you drop the difficulty to normal. Might help a little [img]smile.gif[/img]

Also worth bearing in mind is what Bodhi says about him...he doesn't really turn into a vampire but some sort of liche which might explain the rather nifty spellcasting. Still, it's no worse than Irenicus in 'cutscene mode.'