Greater Werebears???

[SixOfSpades]

What planet are these things from??? Are they an unmentioned addition with the Rebalanced Shapeshifter MOD?

My Evil Barbarian didn't like the way Adalon was rude to him, so he decided she deserved a smackdown. Since it'd be a good idea to summon some beasties that were resistant to Cold, he bade Anomen cast a couple of Conjure Animals to get some Mountain Bears. What they got, however, was horrific. These animals are, well, ANIMALS! They seem to regenerate 20 hitpoints per round! 1 of them, by itself, with no buffing spells at all, got Adalon down to Near Death, and then of course the other one plastered her all over the floor.

What the HELL???

[Lord Lothar]

They are mentioned in the Shapeshifter Remod. It's because the creator thought that conjure animals was too weak.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Ah... ...

[Angelousss]

how often do they get summoned, that seems like it'd be worth trying for. 2 of them could kill a silver dragon, might be just a wee bit overpowered

[Yanez]

Yep, they are quite overpowered. Four of them under haste spell mopped up entire demonic cavern in the Planar Sphere quest (three demons plus their minions) in a matter of few minutes.

[SixOfSpades]

These things are just too much--although I wasn't afraid to take on Adalon with my low-level party, the thought of facing one of these beasts with my PC scares the bejeezus out of me. I pit 2 of them against each other: They seemed to have 3 attacks per round, a great THAC0, and did about 13-24 damage per hit. I let them go at it for a couple of rounds, Paused, and moused-over them.
Greater Werebear- Uninjured
Greater Werebear- Barely Injured

Ye Gods.

I'm not happy with the rest of the Shapeshifter 'Rebalancing' (yeah, right), either--I'll see if I can uninstall it tonight.

"Tarrasque?" What the heck's a "Tarrasque?"

[Alson]

I don't think we, the members of the BG2 community, have any right whatsoever to complain about the various MODs.

First - people put up A LOT of work into them. You should know that SixOfSpades, being a modder yourself. Dismissing them with such ease, is, in my opinion, a bit rude.
Second, these mods are optional. I said it once, and i'll said it again.
As JCompton once said - The "don't install it" argument trumps it all.
If you don't like it - don't install it.

And yes, the Shapeshifter component is easily uninstalled, SixOfSpades.

[ 11-14-2002, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[DJG]

Alson, whether we uninstall it or not, it is still waaaay too overpowered. I mean, a bear that can whack down a Dragon? Yeah right!!!

[Alson]

So the Greater Bearwere is a melee monster. So?

The Spiders from the Spider Spawn spell have poisonous attacks, and are immune to Web. Combine these two features, and you have a Mage killer. Or a Troll killer. Or a Groups-of-Humanoids killer. Or a...

Skeleton Warriors eat enemy Mages for lunch, and Clerics for desert, but i don't see anyone calling them overpowered.

Mordekainen's Swords can beat up 95% of the enemies without losing a single puny HP. Yes, they can easily kill a Dragon, and on Insane, nevertheless. I never heard of anybody that blamed BioWare for implementing them the way they did.

Every summon have its own quality. That's the whole beauty of Magic.
Weimer just felt that Druids should have the ability to summon a creature who is not a Fire Elemental or a Woodland Being.

[ 11-14-2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Alson: I don't think we, the members of the BG2 community, have any right whatsoever to complain about the various MODs.

If not the members of the BG2 community, then who on earth would have the right to complain? I'll have to take two separate tangents in this paragraph:
1) I'm not complaining, I'm stating my opinions. Artists and craftsmen of all stripes have ALWAYS desired feedback from the public, and since I've never seen this topic on Ironworks before, I think it clearly needs to be stated that the Greater Werebears are grossly overpowered.
2) Yes I *AM* complaining, because Weimer has actually stolen part of my game: Anomen and Cernd can no longer cast Conjure Animals, because to do so is the equivalent of Ctrl-Y'ing every enemy that doesn't have a Death Spell memorized. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 of these things take down an Adamantium Golem. (Maybe 4 of them, due to the Gas Cloud.) Also, since the README claims to correct the Shapeshifter class to what was originally intended, some newbies may install it for their very first game, and never even *know* that they were supposed to get Mountain Bears.

First - people put up A LOT of work into them. Dismissing them with such ease, is, in my opinion, a bit rude.

I'm not questioning the quality of the work; I'd have to study for months, at the very least, to reach the level of expertise that Weimer has shown. But it seems that the Management faction has fallen asleep, leaving the Labor party to run rampant. I realize that a great deal of my posts recently have been about overpowering, and other lack of control, in MODs; my only defense is that I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Second, these most are optional. I said it once, and i'll said it again. As JCompton once said - The "don't install it" argument trumps it all. If you don't like it - don't install it.

True, and I can only blame myself for not having read the documentation for the Shapeshifter component thoroughly enough to rememer the Greater Werebears. (Thanks for nudging me, Lord Lothar.) Then again, perhaps it's not stated clearly enough just how brutal they are--I quote: "Conjure Animals" has been changed to summon two 20 HD Greater Bearweres (they're like Greater Wolfweres)." Now, in my last game I was eating Greater Wolfweres for lunch; just another melee opponent for my Undead Hunter to plow through. In this game, though, Grint might face ONE of them, IF the rest of the party was there to back him up, and IF the Werebear were to drop something good.

I was of two minds about this MOD from the start: I liked the way it corrected the WW and GWW forms' magic, elemental, & weapon resistances, and the way their paws strike as +3 weapons instead of +2 weapons, etc, but I did not like the way it enabled them to cast spells while in lupine form, or the way it changed the actual Shapeshifting into a paw that only needs to be created once, and that you can take on & off as many times as you want. So, considering what I liked & didn't like in the README, I decided to give it a try, and am now posting my review. What's wrong with that?

The Shapeshifter Rebalancing component seems, to me, to make the following change to the kit:
Shapeshifter (Druid kit)
ADVANTAGES:
- At Level 13, permanently sets the Shapeshifter's STR, DEX, and CON to 21, 20, and 25, respectively (when using weapons other than their claw/bite attack)
- At Level 13, permanently sets the Shapeshifter's base AC to -10 (when not using their claw/bite attack)
DISADVANTAGES:
- Cannot wear armor
I don't want newbies believing this is the natural order of things either.

I appreciate the amount of work Weimer has put into this, but it doesn't deserve the name of REbalanced Shapeshifter--UNbalanced is more like it. Judging from his reaction, Dundee seems to think so too.

---> Read this part too
Now, this is actually one of the FEW negative comments I have about what Weimer has created (and compiled). I *like* most of what has been done. I downloaded the Ease-Of-Use MOD and installed 10 of its components, only ONE of which is what I would call a "bad" MOD. Hopefully, Weimer and I (and anyone else with input) can discuss this, and come to some sort of an agreement.

[ 11-14-2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]