Forgotten realms question

[ZFR]

Maybe someone knowledgeable can answer me. This is in relation to the great wheel cosmology that was used throughout 2nd ed and 1st ed if I'm not mistaken.

If someone on the prime material dies, he gets transferred to the plane of his allignment, right?
If a demon gets killed on the prime material, he returns to the abyss and is banished for 100 years, right?

So what happens if a demon is killed on his plane in the abyss? does he die permanently? can the primes who got transferred to the abyss be killed permanently over there as well?

Do same rules apply to celestials?

Thanks,
ZFR

[SpiritWarrior]

I am not sure of the specifics and what is or is not conisdered cannon as far as AD&D goes, but if a person on the prime material plane dies I always assumed they talk to the deity of the dead, who then transfers them to their own diety pending judgement etc. So I think in a sense, yes they get transferred to their alignment plane...if that's what you mean.

If a demon is killed on prime, it is indeed banished to the abyss for approximately 100 years.

If it is killed in the abyss, as far as I know it is annihiliated forever. But, another celestial and more powerful deity can bring it back iirc but usually via a ritual that puts the demon in their command (i.e. a God bringing back a demon).

And if a prime is killed in the abyss (assuming by a prime you mean a "human"), I would assume they too are gone forever. Since the abyss is one of the lowest planes, a vertaible "hell" for FR. But I guess that depends on if they are "dead" or "alive" whilst in the abyss.

Not sure if celesitals means gods here or just celestial beings.

[ZFR]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior And if a prime is killed in the abyss (assuming by a prime you mean a "human"), I would assume they too are gone forever. Since the abyss is one of the lowest planes, a vertaible "hell" for FR. But I guess that depends on if they are "dead" or "alive" whilst in the abyss.

So "you will rot in hell for all eternity" is actually bs? The human is quite likely to be killed a few days after arriving in hell?

[Timber Loftis]

I would think that if a person were killed whilst chasing adventure in the Abyss, they would die permanently rather than get "banished" back to the PM plane. But the way I thought FR works, their soul would go to the plane of their alignment/god.

That said, most demons and devils are highly sentient creatures, many of them much smarter than any man could be. Wouldn't they have souls? So, if the were killed in the Abyss, for instance, wouldn't their sould just return right to the Abyss?

I'm confused now. ???

[ZFR]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis So, if the were killed in the Abyss, for instance, wouldn't their sould just return right to the Abyss?

That would make the whole blood war an even bigger joke than it actually is...

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by ZFR So "you will rot in hell for all eternity" is actually bs? The human is quite likely to be killed a few days after arriving in hell?

Yeah, I am wrong there technically. It depends on whether the person in the Abyss is alive or dead. If a human dies in say, Waterdeep, and is banished to the Abyss for their sins or w/e, they are dead and will indeed "rot in hell for all eternity". They have basically been "sent to hell". They can't die there, because they're already dead. But they can endure torture and flames and all that good stuff associated with an eternity of punishment.

But, if a person plane-travels to the abyss whilst alive (powerful wizards etc.) and whilst in the Abyss were slain by a demon or creature, then their soul would simply travel to their god/appropriate alignment plane after a brief interrogation/judgement session with the lord of the dead. They could end up by Mystra's side, or in the Hall of Helm. Or, they could end up back in the Abyss where they originally died if they deserve to be there.

Obviously, few mortal beings have the ability to set foot in the Abyss to begin with, but I am talking about situations where deities send them there (Divine Champions) for a specific reason, or crazy powerful mages that go there at will or to search for demons to do their bidding, or creatures that can plane-walk naturally.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by ZFR Maybe someone knowledgeable can answer me. This is in relation to the great wheel cosmology that was used throughout 2nd ed and 1st ed if I'm not mistaken. If someone on the prime material dies, he gets transferred to the plane of his allignment, right? If a demon gets killed on the prime material, he returns to the abyss and is banished for 100 years, right? So what happens if a demon is killed on his plane in the abyss? does he die permanently? can the primes who got transferred to the abyss be killed permanently over there as well? Do same rules apply to celestials? Thanks, ZFR

Upon death, the souls of mortals are transported first to the Fugue Plane. From the Crystal Spire, Kelemvor and Jergal beckon the Faithless and the False from the Fugue Plane and into the City of Judgement, there to be judged.

The Faithless, those who denied faith or paid lip service to their god, all receive the same punishement: They form a living wall (The Wall of the Faithless) around the City of Judgement, tormented forever or at least until stolen by the tanar'ri; a fate many consider to be even worse.

The False, who betrayed a faith they believed in, remain in the City proper, there to be punished in accordance with their crime. It is whispered that mutilation, dismemberment and madness are but the sweetest tortures inflicted by Kelemvor's minions upon the False .

The various gods and goddesses send their envoys on a regular basis to gather the souls of their worshipers.

A worshiper's soul automatically recognizes an agent of its patron diety, knows that it needs to follow and cannot be deceived into following the agent of another power. Likewise, agents cannot claim the souls of those who worshiped a patron other than those they represent. The collected soul is brought to its deity's realm, where it will serve in whatever capacity necessary. There are two exceptions to this agent's rule: devils and demons.

THE BAATEZU - devils lurk in small enclaves within the Fugue Plane. By agreement with Kelemvor, the god of the dead, they cannot harm or trick the waiting souls of the just-dead. However, they are allowed to explain to the soul its condition and may bargain with it. The baatezu have a great desire for souls, whom they use to create lemures (the lowest sort of devil) which over time are transformed into more powerful entities in the service of the Nine Hells.

THE TANAR'RI - while the lawful baatezu bargain with souls, the chaotic demons employ a simpler method: they steal them! Tanar'ri rulers sometimes create portals between the Abyss and the Fugue Plane, from which pour dozens of demonic servitors. Rallying at the Wall of the Faithless, the demons claw and tear the fabric, then make haste with as many doomed souls as they can. Kelemvor's minions battle them, as do the baatezu, who are always willing to take on their old enemies. The attacks are tolerated, so long as they are not too frequent and don't upset the age-old balance of power.


As for demons and devils themselves, my understanding is that demons and devils which are killed on their home plane are dead forever; while summoned demons / devils are simply banished back to their home planes for a certain period of time. According to 1st edition rules, "Demons of type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again." In addition, demons / devils which are called, rather than summoned, and killed on a plane other than their home plane are dead, end of story. There's a subtle distinction between summoning and calling a demon/devil: the former binds the outsider to your will where the latter simply requests that he come forth (a risky venture to say the least).

Celestials are simply are powerful outsiders of typically good alignment, and the cosmological counterpart to fiends. As such, I suspect they are bound by the same rules regarding death as demons and devils. A recent Forgotten Realms Trilogy entitled The Empyrean Odyssey seems to reinforce that notion.

And all of this is based on PRE-4th edition rules so who knows WHAT is going on now.

Hope that helps.

[SpiritWarrior]

See, I don't know if the wall of the dead with Kelemvor is actually considered cannon. If it is, then the Abyss serves only as the home plane of demons and lower-plane creatures, with there being no plane of "hell" that mortals are sent to, but rather a wall, outside of Kelemvor's territory where they are added to, and poked at by denizens. In books and novels I have seen both scenarios serve as the D&D idea of hell; The Wall of the Dead and the Abyss.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior See, I don't know if the wall of the dead with Kelemvor is actually considered cannon. If it is, then the Abyss serves only as the home plane of demons and lower-plane creatures, with there being no plane of "hell" that mortals are sent to, but rather a wall, outside of Kelemvor's territory where they are added to, and poked at by denizens. In books and novels I have seen both scenarios serve as the D&D idea of hell; The Wall of the Dead and the Abyss.

The Wall of the Faithless IS canon. Here are the specific references:

The 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook has details about the wall on p. 259.

The 3.5 Players Guide to Faerûn has details about the Fugue Plane and the wall on p. 153.

The Forgotten Realms Atlas has a detailed map of the City of Judgment, including the wall.

The Wall of the Faithless is at the heart of the Mask of the Betrayer Expansion in NWN2 as well as more than one FR novel - ALL of which have TSR oversight.


The Abyss is simply one more plane or series of planes. Mortals aren't "sent" anywhere when they die, their souls are and the abyss is only one possible landing spot but only AFTER they go to the Fugue plane first.

The Abyss and the Wall are not mutually exclusive as concepts of "Hell" within D&D. It simply depends on whether the individual actually believed in something or simply pretended to which determines the fate of their soul.

Remember that not all souls are claimed by gods. Indeed the faithless and the false are rejected by dieties and suffer either in the wall or within the city of the dead, although one could argue that Kelemvor and Jergal claim the faithless and false for themselves.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer The Wall of the Faithless IS canon. Here are the specific references: The 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook has details about the wall on p. 259. The 3.5 Players Guide to Faerûn has details about the Fugue Plane and the wall on p. 153. The Forgotten Realms Atlas has a detailed map of the City of Judgment, including the wall. The Wall of the Faithless is at the heart of the Mask of the Betrayer Expansion in NWN2 as well as more than one FR novel - ALL of which have TSR oversight. The Abyss is simply one more plane or series of planes. Mortals aren't "sent" anywhere when they die, their souls are and the abyss is only one possible landing spot but only AFTER they go to the Fugue plane. Remember that not all souls are claimed by gods. Indeed the faithless and the false are rejected by dieties and suffer either in the wall or within the city of the dead, although one could argue that Kelemvor claims the faithless and false for himself.

I think all of these references refer to 3e though, which the OP was talking about 1st and 2nd E. With the possible exception of The Forgotten Realms Atlas which I am unsure which edition you refer to (there were two). And NWN2 was long after the days of TSR.

Of 2e or AD&D, the only reference I have any experience with really is the Avatar Trilogy and then the Trial of Cyric the Mad novel (all awesome btw) which described the wall in great detail and the process of the false and the faithless etc. But see, I have read other AD&D novels that used the Abyss as the D&D version of hell, creating I guess an authors license to change things up a little. This is why I am unsure. Not being argumentative, as I actually love to hear people's knowledge on FR lore, but am just trying to address what I think the OP is requesting, unless he just wants answers from any edition of D&D.

Although you have shown us that as far as 3e and onward go, they definately adopted the wall of the dead as cannon. Which is cool, because I loved those novels.