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Old 02-09-2010, 05:53 PM   #1
Greything
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Join Date: June 25, 2004
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Default Dual wielding

At last I am getting a Rogue build together.

Surprisingly (to me at least) a dual wielding Rogue using daggers seems to be far superior at equivalent levels to a dual wielding Warrior with much heavier weapons.

The Warrior gets better armour and heavier hits but by maxing Dexterity the Rogue increases both offence and defence to the point where it becomes almost invulnerable. Not just that but enemies that cause problems for the Warrior seem to melt in front of the Rogue.

Both my builds have the Momentum skill and the Warrior is only inferior in defence stats. Is there something else in the Rogues favour that I am missing.

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Old 02-09-2010, 07:57 PM   #2
robertthebard
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Default Re: Dual wielding

Well, there's always the fact that if you stick with light weapons, you can always become quite the silver tongued devil as well. Since you can keep your str at bare minimum, and not really suffer for it, you can raise up your Cunning score to help with those pesky persuade checks, locks and traps.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:16 AM   #3
JrKASperov
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Default Re: Dual wielding

Rogues also get a nice damage increase on backstabs, which probably makes them leap ahead of warriors in the DPS department. Throw assassin spec. on top of that and you have a sure winner.

But I have heard Leliana can be made into the ultimate damage dealer... ?
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:52 AM   #4
SpiritWarrior
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Default Re: Dual wielding

Problem with NPC rogues is flanking and having to micro manage them to do it manually. Tactics won't allow you to get into any kind of flanking or backstab position so you need to spec for improved flanking (w/e it's called) and hope they don't hit them from the front.

Even in WoW, backstabbing has always been more trouble than its worth (at least in PvE) since you are repositioning your character for highest damage every single fight. By then, your mage has already burned them to a cinder. I am looking for a mod that will allow the AI to manuever automatically for rogues although I haven't looked as thoroughly as i'd like to. Anyone found one?
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: Dual wielding

I've got a dagger/dagger Rogue going, and am amazed at how quickly enemies are cut down. I opted for a cunning build--with Lethality, Cunning replaces dex to determine damage. High cunning also means I need fewer levels of Persuade and Lockpick.

With Assassin skill Exploit Weakness, you get additional damage for Cunning score.

I'll go with Bard for 2nd spec, since the song bonuses are also Cunning based. Song of Courage for attack, damage, and crit bonus will help with the hit rate (which suffers from lack of dex--I have Wynne cast Heroic Offense in the meantime).

Goal is to pump Cunning as high as possible, and have Song of Courage and Momentum always on. Coup de Grace eliminates the need to maneuver for backstabs when a mage incapacitates enemies. Otherwise, I maneuver to backstab the enemies the tank is keeping occupied.

The big disadvantage of the Cunning build is lower defense. I really don't want to draw too much attention with my rogue. Fortunately, it's easy enough to keep melee enemies focused on the tank by simply putting him in front (first spotted), massive armor, Threaten, and the occasional Taunt. I don't normally send the Rogue out to take on ranged enemies or mages 1 on 1. For one, my defense is low, plus I can't backstab if they are focussed on me. I rely on mages to disable enemy mages and archers until the melee mobs are down. Now, if a mage lets off a PE or Mass Par. and catches the ranged mobs, my Rogue will happily go chop them up before they recover

A few things that help make a dual dagger build (dex or cunning) more effective. Faster attacks with daggers than heavier weapons, especially compared to warriors who don't have Momentum. Rune effects. A pair of +4 flame runes add 8 damage to each attack, whether they are in a dagger or a longsword. But the dagger gets to strike more often, so a dagger gains more DPS for the same runes than a sword.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:31 AM   #6
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Default Re: Dual wielding

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior View Post
Problem with NPC rogues is flanking and having to micro manage them to do it manually. Tactics won't allow you to get into any kind of flanking or backstab position so you need to spec for improved flanking (w/e it's called) and hope they don't hit them from the front.

Even in WoW, backstabbing has always been more trouble than its worth (at least in PvE) since you are repositioning your character for highest damage every single fight. By then, your mage has already burned them to a cinder. I am looking for a mod that will allow the AI to manuever automatically for rogues although I haven't looked as thoroughly as i'd like to. Anyone found one?
One way to reduce micromanaging your rogues is to get them Coup de Grace (free backstabs on incapacitated targets). Then set Tactics to Enemy-Status-Can't move-Attack. If you have a mage that's got crowd control spells, your Rogue can take down paralyzed/frozen enemies without worrying about positioning for backstabs.

Another one to try would be to set to attack target of [tank]. Enemy should be facing the tank, and so your chances of attacking from the side or rear are decent, especially if there's a crowd surrounding your tank.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:23 AM   #7
SpiritWarrior
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Default Re: Dual wielding

Yes, Coup de Grace was what I meant by the backstabbing spec - forgot the name, lol.

Your other suggestions are interesting workarounds, I will certainly try 'em on the tactics menu. Thanks.
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:44 AM   #8
Sparhawk
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Default Re: Dual wielding

I had not thought about the cunning build for rogues - I will have to try that one out as my current rogue is pure dex build - 1 man army almost - but have to admit that the cunning build sounds interesting.
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Old 03-10-2010, 11:39 AM   #9
Kakero
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Default Re: Dual wielding

My rogue/assassin (the gay elf, forgot his name) does great damage with his dual wielding dagger. There was once I saw him dealing 47++ damage. omfg!

For his build I put him at 2dex/1cun on every level up. Invested skill in assassin and dual wielding skills.

You don't need to micro manage, just assign him tactics and off he go!

edit : don't forget to use poison as well.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:50 AM   #10
Sparhawk
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Default Re: Dual wielding

Is it possible to use the cunning score instead of strength to equip items? - if I use the talent that is lethality I think its called - what I mean is can it be used for anything besides the dmg.
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"Unleash the Casey!"

"Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"
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