The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[Tobbin]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: How do I do that, then? Adam and Eve were innocent, but they were not children. They were two adults and Adam at least had apparantly spent time conversing with god, so was not exactly ignorant. They were also perfect - including high intelligence, as well as phsical perfection. And although Eve was deceived by Satan, Adam certainly was not. When he ate the fruit he knew what he was doing as is made clear at 1 Timothy 2:14. That is why Adam carries much greater 'blame' than Eve. SHE did not realise what she had done, but Adam did and CARRIED ON and did it himself anyway! The 'dad' analogy, therefore, does not prove your point, imho!

In order to reference what could have happened in the past, you have to consider that the events happened in the past. To try and figure out what we would do today to understand what happened at the beginning of time is rather short-sighted in my opinion. I take it that there was not much about life that was needed back then. I try not to take anything literal (especially from the bible as it has made many changes over the years) and try to gain a better understanding of events by taking what we know of the events with a grain of salt. If a person has a very bitter life, they will tend to feel negative towards God, just as someone that skates by and is given everything will, more than likely, promote the vision of a God. I tend to view life with an optimistic viewpoint. Having said that, I tend to believe that God is a beneficial force. All knowing from my aspect of knowledge. If you can step out of this knowledge, however, it is easier to believe that God could make mistakes. But, in the understanding that we can learn from our mistakes, I believe that God too, can learn from these mistakes. That is why I believe that Satan was created first, but was not delivered into the garden as it was not yet created. When God created Adam, he created the garden that he could protect man from Satan. After several hundred years though, God became curious to find out exactly what he had created, thereby allowing Satan into the garden. God evidently knew and expected what was to happen. Even if this did not occur, why should we accept that God was trying to fake us out, trick us, lie to us? Maybe it's true, and I can accept someone else's opinion of this, but seeing that I believe in God, I would rather believe that we are the favored. I can honestly say that I have had a great deal of negativity in my life (way beyond what I can convey here), but I can also state that I have been truly blessed. When I was younger, I tested this theory by allowing myself to be placed in a position where I could have been significantly harmed. Not once, but several times. In all of those circumstances, I kept my faith as my shield and I always came out unscathed. It was when I dropped my shield that I began to falter. I can't claim to live God's will, but I try as hard as I can to do the best I can for myself and others. I truly believe that by helping others, we help ourselves to become that much closer to God. I will hold at that thought as religion in general tends to get people down or starts them to want to fight. I apologize for bringing my opinions here and to any I may have offended.

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Protectorate of the OHF
Death Waits 4 U ALL

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Fall of Man (Bible Dictionary) The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen.2,3,4. The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurances in the history of man. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had phicical bodies but no blood. There was no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations. With the eating of the "forbidden fruit", Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life. Adam became the first flesh upon the earth, meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam's fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind. The fall ws no surprise to the Lord. It was a necessary step in the progress of man, and provisions for a Savior had been made even before the fall had occured. Jesus Christ came to atone for the fall of Adam and also for man's individual sins. This quote is not just what I believe, but what is supported by 11 million members world-wide in our church.

Oh, ye gods! People BELIEVE that????!! Wandering around with no blood in their veins? Oh my, oh my. So when god created Adam and 'blew into his nostrils the breath of life' and Adam started breathing, it was a pretty pointless excercise, right? Wonder why god bothered when he didn't have any blood to be oxygenated!?
I'd love to read the bible version they found THAT idea in! But of course - they didn't, did they? I am just totally awed and stunned by what people will accept as true.

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Tobbin]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Disobedience. Obedience was what he was asking of them. They took the fruit, and broke a law. Yet, at the same time, they were completing another commandment, Be fruitful and multiply. They had to pass through sorrow, that they might gain joy. In thier innocence, they knew no right from wrong, and so they could not progress. To learn to make a choice and choose the right path is what God wanted them to do. They had no choice but to partake. In so doing, they could repent of their transgression, and eagerly strive to gain favor back with God, thus proving their faith.

I am not sure I totally agree with your beliefs, but would be interested in learning more if you are willing. I was looking to see if I could e-mail you, but noticed that you have your e-mail turned off. I do not wish to debate. Many churches that I have been to have been rather near-sighted about beliefs, meaning that you MUST follow what they believe or you will not be judged before God. If your beliefs are a little more liberal I would like to learn more. From how I have seen you post, it appears that this may be the church that I am looking for. If you can not or prefer not to, I understand.



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Protectorate of the OHF
Death Waits 4 U ALL

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by onthepequod: Yes, you're partially correct. If you tell someone today, "they will die if they eat something," then they will assume that you mean fall over and die. But remember Adam and Eve were the first humans on this globe without the experience of seeing others die from posioning. In fact they, at that point in time had never seen death. They had no point of referrence for what it means to fall over and die. That is other than any knowledge that God imparted to hem during those times that God talk with them in the garden. To say Adam and Eve would assume the outcome would be something that they were quite possibly not even aware of, is a jump in logic. Quiet presumabley God had conveyed his intent that something terrible would happen where they would spiritually die. Also as I have pointed out in one previous theological discussion, translations while achieving a high degree of accuracy are rarely perfect. I would have to agree with Larry, God's intent was spiritual death and no misleading, on God's behalf, took place.

Huh? Of COURSE they had seen death, Onthepequod!
Do you think animals and insects were not dying while they were in the Garden?
They were not in the least shocked when god killed animals to make skin garments for them! And how could god tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree because on the day they ate from it they would die, if they had no idea what death was? Bit unfair, that, don't you think? Eve was certainly aware of it - her response to Satan showed she knew what it was. They were evidently in that Garden a LONG time before the fall! They knew what death was, ok, lol!

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Tobbin: In order to reference what could have happened in the past, you have to consider that the events happened in the past. To try and figure out what we would do today to understand what happened at the beginning of time is rather short-sighted in my opinion. I take it that there was not much about life that was needed back then. I try not to take anything literal (especially from the bible as it has made many changes over the years) and try to gain a better understanding of events by taking what we know of the events with a grain of salt. If a person has a very bitter life, they will tend to feel negative towards God, just as someone that skates by and is given everything will, more than likely, promote the vision of a God. I tend to view life with an optimistic viewpoint. Having said that, I tend to believe that God is a beneficial force. All knowing from my aspect of knowledge. If you can step out of this knowledge, however, it is easier to believe that God could make mistakes. But, in the understanding that we can learn from our mistakes, I believe that God too, can learn from these mistakes. That is why I believe that Satan was created first, but was not delivered into the garden as it was not yet created. When God created Adam, he created the garden that he could protect man from Satan. After several hundred years though, God became curious to find out exactly what he had created, thereby allowing Satan into the garden. God evidently knew and expected what was to happen. Even if this did not occur, why should we accept that God was trying to fake us out, trick us, lie to us? Maybe it's true, and I can accept someone else's opinion of this, but seeing that I believe in God, I would rather believe that we are the favored. I can honestly say that I have had a great deal of negativity in my life (way beyond what I can convey here), but I can also state that I have been truly blessed. When I was younger, I tested this theory by allowing myself to be placed in a position where I could have been significantly harmed. Not once, but several times. In all of those circumstances, I kept my faith as my shield and I always came out unscathed. It was when I dropped my shield that I began to falter. I can't claim to live God's will, but I try as hard as I can to do the best I can for myself and others. I truly believe that by helping others, we help ourselves to become that much closer to God. I will hold at that thought as religion in general tends to get people down or starts them to want to fight. I apologize for bringing my opinions here and to any I may have offended.

Well, Tobbin, as I said before, if you don't believe the bible is true you are as entitled to your speculations as anyone! Please don't apologize for them! I should apologise to you, I guess, for telling you you made me laugh! Please don't be offended! I meant it in no nasty way at all!
Friends?


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[Larry_OHF]

When God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam, that breath of life was the placing the Spirit into the body, to make it whole.
Thus Adam awoke, Spirit and body joined.
That is what we believe.
It was not putting air into his lungs.

When I witnessed the birth of my child, they did not breathe into her to get her little motor running, she did that on her own when she came out...though they had to clean the mucas(or whatever) outta her nose, first. But they did not give her breath. Why would God then have to give Adam his?

Oh, and please do not make me feel shy about posting anymore.
Your taunts are making me feel like I should stop posting.
The rolling eyes smilies and other things you are using are offensive.
And yes, 11 Million people share my beliefs.
All of them.


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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 09-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 09-09-2001).]

I WAS the evil end in that deal...... Diablo did the snakey, I did the "delicious apple" trick.....

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All your base are belong to us! How Are you gentlemen?

The Spaminyte Emperor
Fish?
***********************
Welcome to your doom!!!
***********************
Official villain/demon of IW!

[Ladyzekke]

I agree Larry.

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: When God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam, that breath of life was the placing the Spirit into the body, to make it whole. Thus Adam awoke, Spirit and body joined. That is what we believe. It was not putting air into his lungs. When I witnessed the birth of my child, they did not breathe into her to get her little motor running, she did that on her own when she came out...though they had to clean the mucas(or whatever) outta her nose, first. But they did not give her breath. Why would God then have to give Adam his? Oh, and please do not make me feel shy about posting anymore. Your taunts are making me feel like I should stop posting. The rolling eyes smilies and other things you are using are offensive. And yes, 11 Million people share my beliefs. All of them.

Larry – I’m sorry I laughed. I thought I had deleted that part of the post before you had seen it, as I realised, after a short while, that it would be offensive. Please forgive me for offending you.

However, although you are perfectly free to believe anything you like, as am I and everyone else, I made the mistake of thinking you believed in the bible as god’s word of truth – which, indeed, you appear to do – and so I was startled as well as puzzled (and, yes, amused, I'm afraid) by your belief that the first man and woman were created without blood. It is certainly not a biblical teaching.

Also, when the bible says that god ‘breathed into his nostrils the breath of life’, it meant exactly that. Breath. The original-language word used in that verse and in the rest of the bible’s Old Testament simply relates to breathing, in most instances, though it is also used, in some contexts, to relate to ‘the spirit’. There is no indication in the account of human creation, however, to justify it’s use in that way in that context.
Adam was not like your daughter, or any baby, Larry. God created him fully grown from the dust of the ground, and god himself initiated the breathing cycle. That is what the bible shows. Nothing complicated. Adam and Eve were mortal when they were made. They were human when they were made. There is nothing whatever in the bible to make anyone suppose otherwise. If it were not the case, if they were immortal before the fall, what need was there for god to have planted for them the Tree of Life? It was only by eating the fruit of that tree that they would have gained everlasting life.

I would be interested to know what scriptures your religion uses to justify this belief that they had no blood and were not mortal. Also, could you give me the title and publisher (the isbn would also be useful) of the bible dictionary you quoted from? I would be interested to read it.

Again, my apologies for offending you. It was not you personally I was laughing at, but I have no right to make fun of anyone's beliefs.

Please don't feel shy about posting on account of my total lack of tact. I don't know what has come over me lately - twice in the last week I have said something I shouldn't have. I'll try to be more sensitive in future.

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Gosh, well I get amused by the notion that god is punishing at all. I'm compelled to forgive those who project such a human failing upon a concept that could hold only our highest and purest ideals.
But perhaps this is a metaphor to decipher in this tale of the garden of eden. We can erringly percieve God as a seperate entity and imperfect, with human failings. Thus, in our half-sight, we are cast out of paradise, the light of truth. That perfect love like God's is within one and all and that God goes beyond the limited human morality of crime and punishment, Obediance and defiance, good and evil.