Filesharing (theft) Some facts about music and copyright:

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Yorick: You completely missed my point. The mp3 is not a SAMPLE, it is the ACTUAL PRODUCT. I am well aware of sampling products. I simply said, who offers something and then asks you to pay for it? How ludicrous would it be to ask Chewbacca to pay for the mp3 he downloaded now that he's heard it? It defys reason. Again, an mp3 is not a sample, it is the actual product. A sample would be one listen. Radio play for example is a sample. You don't own a copy of the product you can listen to at any time. When you purchase music, that is what you own. The ability to listen to it whenever you like. How was this point missed?

No, I didn't miss your point - you missed mine.
If I OWN the original and MAKE A COPY and PLAY IT TO A FRIEND, he does NOT own the product - he has recieved a sample.

Originally posted by Yorick: You again completely missed the point that live shows promote albums. Completely ignored it. Singles on radio give an act expose. More singles = more albums. When you go to see a big band, they play the whole album. Songs from old albums. Album sales are built on album tours. It's a plain truth. No secret.

No, once more, YOU have missed my point.
BEFORE you can use tours to albums, you must first PROMOTE yourself.

Organising a tour of the band that no-one has heard of is not going to make great record sales, is it. First there has to be exposure and when you are big enough, THEN the live shows and tours promote albums.

Originally posted by Yorick: Look, I am getting sick of this discussion. Either do your research on the way the industry has worked until now or stop posting on this subject. I am not here to educate you on how the industry has worked.

That's rather arrogant considering that you are hardly an international success yourself (let alone a national success). Perhaps I'm not the only one who needs to do some research?

Originally posted by Yorick: The argument that mp3 sharing leads to increased live work is irrelevent. The overwhelming majority of albums are NOT released to generate live work. Live work is done to promote albums. That is the way it has been for decades. Since artists were given royalties. Mp3 sharing is taking the PRODUCT. There is no point in me doing a tour of Ecuador to promote something anyone who has heard of me already owns. Ludicrous.

That's very true - but I never stated that so I'm not sure why you brought it up. My point was with regards to COPYING CD's/converting to MP3 by someone who BOUGHT the album for their own private purposes without the intention of handing copied material to others.

Another of my points that you missed?

Originally posted by Yorick: Think about it. International tours are few and far between in Australia because there are not enough record sales in Australia for a touring act to justify touring there.

Because the lack of a fair-use copying clause is stunting sales. I know, I know. It was the point that I was making.

Originally posted by Yorick: The Australian artist competes - in their own country - against product from America and England, that has vast amounts of money behind it. When I brought out my first record, it was taken to radio. At the same time, the same record company were taking U2s Actung Baby to radio, and Brian Adams "Waking up the Neighbours". Other companies and other artists were releasing product at the same time.

So U2 were just born big and there were no other big bands around at the time when they started out? One day Bono just wrote a song and 2 billion people bought it? I can assure that was not the case - and that taping albums for personal use did not harm his sales or the growth of U2.
Irish artists also compete against US and British bands and have EVEN Smaller record sales than in Austrailia.

Originally posted by Yorick: Australian music simply doesn't have the market, hence the dollars, to generate anything near the publicity a record made offshore does.

Exactly my point. Exposure under the Austrailian system can only be achieved with BIG BUCKS (unlike in Ireland).

Originally posted by Yorick: I have had my car broken into. I have had CDs stolen. CDs are valuable yes. The answer? 1. Don't keep your collection in your car. 2. Keep a small amount of CDs you are listening to in your car. 3. Get the collection insured.

Or in other words:
No-one should ever be exposed to a band that is NOT owned by a large corporation and we should all DO OUR BEST to keep the exposure of small bands down to a minimum (we wouldn't want anyone to hear a sample of a small band because that could lead to people buying records or going to concerts).

By the way, getting a CD collection insured in Europe is like trying to get insured against acts of terrorism - prohibitively expense if you can find a willing insurer.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: Organising a tour of the band that no-one has heard of is not going to make great record sales, is it. First there has to be exposure and when you are big enough, THEN the live shows and tours promote albums.

Well it's HAS worked again and again. Yes it takes a long time, but live work generates a following that then buys albums. You tour to sell albums, you don't make albums to tour.

Every heard of SUPPORT SLOTS?

That is the quickest way to play in front of a new audience.

That's rather arrogant considering that you are hardly an international success yourself (let alone a national success). Perhaps I'm not the only one who needs to do some research?

LOL! That depends on your definition of success Skunk. I'm more than happy with what I've achieved in my homeland and now here in the USA. I have SUCCEEDED in what I set out to do, so am by definition successful.

Because the lack of a fair-use copying clause is stunting sales. I know, I know. It was the point that I was making.

Show proof or retract. You are completely incorrect and posted nothing, no proof no argument, no firsthand experience, no figures that in anyway support your nonsensical assertion.

So U2 were just born big and there were no other big bands around at the time when they started out? One day Bono just wrote a song and 2 billion people bought it? I can assure that was not the case - and that taping albums for personal use did not harm his sales or the growth of U2. Irish artists also compete against US and British bands and have EVEN Smaller record sales than in Austrailia.

Heard of the "Tyrrany of Distance?"

The proximity to London make a huge difference. So does being part of the E.U. (now) Touring in Europe and England and even America, were and still are, much easier for an Irish band than for one from Australia. Costs, time away, dollar exchange, familiarity with cultural trends, visa difficulties etc etc etc.

If I recall correctly U2 used the fact that Adam Clayton was English to their advantage too.

Contrastingly, many an Australian has been sent home simply for bringing a guitar in to England on a tourist visa.

Exactly my point. Exposure under the Austrailian system can only be achieved with BIG BUCKS (unlike in Ireland).

Additional comparisons of Australia to Ireland are also like comparing apples and oranges, considering the Australian cultural penchant for all things sporting, the Irish weather, the history of Irish music, the forementioned proximity to London and Europe, the geographical distances in Australia that make internal touring prohibitive, and so on and so on. You cannot compare the two.

No-one should ever be exposed to a band that is NOT owned by a large corporation and we should all DO OUR BEST to keep the exposure of small bands down to a minimum (we wouldn't want anyone to hear a sample of a small band because that could lead to people buying records or going to concerts).

No that's not what I said. I simply doubt that you copying a bands CD does anything for that band.

By the way, getting a CD collection insured in Europe is like trying to get insured against acts of terrorism - prohibitively expense if you can find a willing insurer.

Then revert to points 1 and 2.

The point is why should laws that protect people from having millions stolen from them, be revoked so other won't lose $1000. Doesn't make sense.

[ 02-10-2004, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Skunk: That's rather arrogant considering that you are hardly an international success yourself (let alone a national success). Perhaps I'm not the only one who needs to do some research?

Skunk, I know a little more about Yorick's career and successes, perhaps, but this comment comes off sounding fairly insulting. Yorick isn't going to brag on his successes or his top 40's but I will just let you know that we've heard him here in the States on a few recent commercials, so he's hardly a 'nobody' in the business.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: quote: Originally posted by Skunk: That's rather arrogant considering that you are hardly an international success yourself (let alone a national success). Perhaps I'm not the only one who needs to do some research?

Skunk, I know a little more about Yorick's career and successes, perhaps, but this comment comes off sounding fairly insulting. Yorick isn't going to brag on his successes or his top 40's but I will just let you know that we've heard him here in the States on a few recent commercials, so he's hardly a 'nobody' in the business. [/QUOTE]'Twas in reaction to be called (words to the effect of) 'ignorant' - but I suppose you're right: an insult does not deserve an insult... I shall try to roll with the punches in the future...

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: quote: Originally posted by Skunk: That's rather arrogant considering that you are hardly an international success yourself (let alone a national success). Perhaps I'm not the only one who needs to do some research?

Skunk, I know a little more about Yorick's career and successes, perhaps, but this comment comes off sounding fairly insulting. Yorick isn't going to brag on his successes or his top 40's but I will just let you know that we've heard him here in the States on a few recent commercials, so he's hardly a 'nobody' in the business. [/QUOTE]'Twas in reaction to be called (words to the effect of) 'ignorant' - but I suppose you're right: an insult does not deserve an insult... I shall try to roll with the punches in the future... [/QUOTE]No worries, Skunk.

In general, let's see this whole discussion stay focused on the facts and opinions of those facts without any tossing of names or misplaced adjectives. It's a serious subject and for the most part this has been a flame free one. Keep the water buckets handy and keep discussing!

[ 02-10-2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Memnoch]

I agree Cloudy, for such a sensitive topic it has been well-discussed except for a bit of mudslinging and post-shredding at the end. I won't add to what Clouds said other than to ask that this thread not be personalised (ie we're talking about filesharing, not Yorick's success as a musician). Being an OZ I can offer as a fact that he has experienced more than a fair bit of success here, but that's not the point - the point is that we shouldn't bring Yorick's career into question here. Yorick's not on trial, after all.

Anyway, back on topic. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-11-2004, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Yorick]

Thanks guys.... back on topic:

I realised I failed to mention that if I produce a CD, the only way I see any money is from sales of that CD. I don't get songwriting point, I don't tour with the band, I don't "build a following". The only investment as the producer is in that particular CD. So when someone steals it, I'm stuffed.

[Yorick]

It's a pretty pertinant point for me, because I am nearly finished producing an album I have poured time; physical, emotional and creative energy; ideas, sounds and performances into. It comes at physical, emotional and creative cost. I work on this at the expense of my own artist projects.

Yet people here would say some of those songs are "crap" and use that to justify stealing the product. I labour with care over every note on every instrument on every song, so that it fits together in the context of an album, yet some couldn't care about the album itself as an artform.

I will not be perfoming this live. I am the producer not the artist. I will not be getting money if the songs go on radio. I am not the songwriter. The sole way I - who have worked longer and played more instruments on it than any other contributor to the music, (including the artist) - will see compensation for my ideas, time and energy is through CD sales.

There is no advance to pay back. No record company taking royalties. (Though I wish a record company had paid for it)

Yet the callous disregard for my livelihood and one of the things I value most in life. The thing which sustains me physically and emotionally, is treated with contempt, disregard and disdain.

It simply makes me want simply say "■■■■ you", but that would be a flame.

I cannot express how hurt I am that someone who considers themself a "fan" of music, can possibly download and then forward on music. I cannot understand the attitudes of people in the anti-RIAA threads that have links in this thread for example. I cannot come to terms with the ignorance that perpetuates this entire thing.

I do apologise for the length of replies, the tone of my writing, the attitude and everything else, but I am at my wits end regarding it. To simply survive mentally as an artist, I had to resign myself to the fact the days of seeing money from CD album sales are nearly gone, so I may as well look for other avenues of musical income. Yet, making albums is so fulfilling. It is part of what drives me as a creative being.

To simply find the mental energy to finish this CD has been a task in itself, given the prospective removal of a key motivational driving force - return. I have to keep telling myself "It's not about the money". And it's not. Never was. Still makes it difficult losing that motivating factor though.

Throw in the fact that an apparent MAJORITY of people who consume music, fileshare - including good r/l friends of mine (who will stay friends of course)... and I am at a loss. People simply don't care, and as evident from this thread, get indignant and angry when told an artists perspective.

I don't know what else to say. You've simply been listening to the ravings of a man who's been kicked in the guts.

Sorry if it offended.

See ya

Hugh

[ 02-14-2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[WOLFGIR]

You are not merely rambling Yorick, your points are indeed wellput and legit.
You are just on the other side of the fence that I think many people haven't been and hence can't see so clearly what goes on on that side.

My major qualms are not with the atrist, so I buy the CD's even if I have downloaded songs from the internet should I find it good. If I don't like it, I don't keep the music. Really simple. I am not perfect though, and I don't claim that I ever will be mind you . So hmm trying to end the babbling here. My qualms are with the industry and the way they actually treat the consumers. I am a consumer and when when I buy a CD of music I want to be able to at least listen to that mucis without installing tonnes of programs and crap on my computer, having difficulties to play it in a car stereo or on my DVD. I don't own a regular old CD disc player, so with all this crap they put on the CD I can't listen to it. It soathes only cponscious as I download the songs, perfectly ripped on the internet but hey, I still got the CD.

Problem here being that instead of fighting the real issue, lower the costs of the cd's and increase sell = keep the same profit, they spend billions of dollars on copyprotection that only hurts legit people. The ones doing the filesharing brakes it the minute its released.

So the consumers, the pirates and the record companies are creating a bad circle that none mentioned is ready to break. Unfortunately, the artist are left standing there. And I think that most people actually wants to see the artist paid so they could contnue making music. Just head over and look at the Toolband.com forum or Perfect circle who has a huge crowd of fans, how many listened to mp3's first then bought the record.

I am not trying to defend any side here, only try to shed some light on how I see things. Something has to be done or the only music lefft out there will be "Britney pop" (poor Britney will be the pop icon blamed here for overly manufactered music.. and overly played music for that matter as well) and less of the variety of music we wants to listen to. And it is not only the filesharers fault in my humble opinion.

On a different note, Yorick, I wish you can find the strength to continue writing and make records, and you should know that your music is well liked. Only yesterday I played some music to a firend of mine, and she said, WOW. I thought that since he was a friend of yours it was just a hobby.. but this is great

[wellard]

Originally posted by Yorick: Yet the callous disregard for my livelihood and one of the things I value most in life. The thing which sustains me physically and emotionally, is treated with contempt, disregard and disdain. There is not callous disregard by all Yorick, just ignorance of the damage they are doing to REAL people in the industry. There is hope in the majority of people doing the right thing if educated I do apologise for the length of replies, the tone of my writing, the attitude and everything else, but I am at my wits end regarding it. To simply survive mentally as an artist, I had to resign myself to the fact the days of seeing money from CD album sales are nearly gone, so I may as well look for other avenues of musical income. Yet, making albums is so fulfilling. It is part of what drives me as a creative being. Yorick no apology should be needed here, this is your livelyhood and (outside of your faith) your passion. Those unable to grasp that fact are making no attempt to understand IMO and I am at a loss. People simply don't care, and as evident from this thread, get indignant and angry when told an artists perspective. I don't know what else to say. You've simply been listening to the ravings of a man who's been kicked in the guts. Many do care, many may have read this thread, and the recent others, and learnt from your posts if not agreed on every aspect. I certainly have, but that is a small drop in the ocean. You are not going to win this fight alone yorick, Where is the record industry promotinal campaign explaining to kids the damage caused? Surely a joint effort by the industry can be mounted? What about governments that are missing out on the huge taxes they have enjoyed for years? Where are they with the help Yorick? They just can't milk the industry for years then walk away when it turns sour. Sorry if it offended. [img]graemlins/moon.gif[/img] dogs arse your are! [img]tongue.gif[/img] See ya Hugh