"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

Originally posted by Yorick: I'm such an insufferable arsehole. Sometimes I read what I've written and think... what the hell am I on? Who gives a rip? ... An apology for past present and future grievances. I will offend you again, and I'm sorry for it. I do enjoy chatting to you guys, and I do respect most of you.... everyone except for Melusorick.

spoken like an adult and a gentleman. knowing you are aware means a lot. (i, for one, never doubted you meant well.)

my grandmother always said "dont be sorry, just do better". she was wise.

onya yorick. here's looking forward to further bruhahas. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Hey Hugh,

I just want you to know, that although we butt-heads on occassion (probably because we are more alike than we are different )I do respect your point of views (even if I disagree) and your (beleive it or not) religious beleifs/practice.

Peace,
Scott [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-30-2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Where in the bible is this statement on how to achieve eternal life reconciled by being saved by Jesus grace as the sole way to recieve eternal life and the sole determining factor of whether or not a whole church or an individual's religious belief/practice is "truly" Christian or not?

I thought you'd never ask... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

O.k. I've taken the time to cut and paste quite a number of references. The ones from the book of Romans are quite in-depth. So please give them a good read. Don't just skim over them. There is so much freedom in accepting Jesus grace. It does remove you from doing actions out of necessity or reluctant obedience, and from feeling guilty or ashamed, and leads to actions motivated by love and other positive forces. I obey my God because I love him, not because I have to. Such is the liberty.

Anyway here they are. Please take the time to read them if you disagree. We can go over the concepts later if you like.

Talk to you later. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hugh

==================================


Ephesians 2: 8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith --and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast.


Romans 3: 21-31
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.


---------------------------
John 1: 12& 16-18
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.......
.......From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.


-----------------------------
Acts 15: 10-11
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."


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Romans 5: 12-21
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


------------------------------
Romans 6: 1-4 & 14 & 23

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.....

.....For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace......

.......For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


-------------------------------

Romans 11: 5&6 & 32
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


-------------------------

Ephesians 1: 4-8

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will -- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Hey Hugh, I just want you to know, that although we butt-heads on occassion (probably because we are more alike than we are different )I do respect your point of views (even if I disagree) and your (beleive it or not) religious beleifs/practice. Peace, Scott [img]smile.gif[/img]

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Me too mate. Good on you bro. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-30-2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by sultan: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: I'm such an insufferable arsehole. Sometimes I read what I've written and think... what the hell am I on? Who gives a rip? ... An apology for past present and future grievances. I will offend you again, and I'm sorry for it. I do enjoy chatting to you guys, and I do respect most of you.... everyone except for Melusorick.

spoken like an adult and a gentleman. knowing you are aware means a lot. (i, for one, never doubted you meant well.)

my grandmother always said "dont be sorry, just do better". she was wise.

onya yorick. here's looking forward to further bruhahas. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img] [/QUOTE][img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: 16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. 19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[1] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[2] " 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." From how I read it, Grace, or faith for that matter, isn't even mention here as the key to eternal life. Rather it seems that good works like earning rather than stealing, being truthful, giving to the poor (all possessions, ZIOKS!), honoring parents and doing good to others are what matter.

If you'll notice, the man said he kept all the commandments, and said "what more do I LACK". Keeping the commandments was not enough, for then Jesus told him to lose material attachments and FOLLOW HIM.

Follow Jesus.

Bear in mind, this was said before he died too. On the cross he told the thief crucified next to him, he would see him in paradise. Simply for believing in him.

God is good. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-30-2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Faceman]

Cheers on me too.
And for the last time about the Mormons.
If you ask a Mormon: "Who is the person most important in your faith" he'll probably answer that it is Jesus, son of god.
If you ask a Muslim, he will tell you that it is Muhammad, the prophet of Allah.
Of course Jesus is a prophet for Muslims, he may even be THE prophet in some twisted wordsense. But THE prophet in the common sense of the most important, most commonly name prophet is Muhammad.
The sentence goes: "There is no god other than Allah and Muhammad is his prophet" not "Muhammad is his latest prophet" or "Muhammad is his prophet, though Jesus Christ is a more important prophet actually".
No Muslim would ever call himself a Christian, Mormons do.
Being a Christian means following Christ and is a decision you make. So if you consider yourself a Christian you probably have made that choice and are following Christ and therefore are a Christian.
How would you feel if someone told you that "you don't pray to God" stating that he prays to God, but does so differently and your concept of God seems to differ mostly, so logically speaking you should give that higher being another name and not be allowed to call it God anymore.
If Mormons consider themselves Christians and as long as they don't do something which severely contradicts the new testimony I will think of them as Christians.

[Djinn Raffo]

Any room for a born again Shintoist in this thread?

[Melusorick!]

Originally posted by Yorick: I do enjoy chatting to you guys, and I do respect most of you.... everyone except for Melusorick.

Up yours, you smelly old werris soaked in elephant dung! [img]graemlins/kiss.gif[/img]

Seriously Hugh - that was a really cool and honest post mate. You're my friend so it didn't come as a surprise that you could write something so frank and brave, but well, I have to say you were right about what you said: you do have a real knack of losing touch completely with other people's feelings when you're debating, just ploughing through arguments bull-headedly... oh well it's obvious you know what I mean. It can be pretty frustrating, and I try to avoid those debates - but I'm sure you get aggravated too by some posts here. [img]smile.gif[/img] But anyway, apology accepted, you diseased bag of monkey excrement that's been pecked open and smeared out over the desert sand by mangy vultures.

Love ya mate

[LordKathen]

I am at a loss of words to type. I cant believe you (Yorick), have the arrogance enough to take my own words, quote only the part of the sentence you aggree with to make a point, as if you got one in on me. As if I contradicted myself.
Sounds alot like tabloids, when they are in need for a story. Take only part of their words and comment on that. You really are an amazing person Yorick. You have made this very obvious by all the posting about all the wonderfull things you can do and have acomplished in life. I can only imagine, seens how I dont believe in God. That must mean I have know hope of: being a father of 4, having a wonderfull wife, over coming an amphetimine addiction 8 years ago on my own, hhmm, let me see, what else... oh-ya, accomplished at guitar, uh...well, thats
all can think of right now, sorry. I am sure there is more stuff I could only hope to achieve through faith in God. Heck I guess I am pretty lucky to even be alive, considering all the people who die everyday needlesly who are Christian. Maybe its becouse I married a Mormon.
I know I will probly get in trouble for the personal sarcasm here, but you crossed the line Yorick, and I can't believe it. I must be one of the ones you dont respect. Thats fine, I respect your passion, just not your attitude and intolerance for others opinions. Not once did I put your faith down, and all you have done is tell me that my thoughts on the matter are wrong, period.


Sorry, thats just my opinion.

I do want to thank the posts that defend my position on Mormons.