"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by LordKathen: I have exremely personal experience with Mormons. I witness what can be done to someone on the negetive side of religion. This is the problem I have with LDS specificaly.

As have I. As do I.


[/QUOTE]First off, why did you change the text in my statement you quoted of me? You did not quote the whole text! Why is that? I said "This is the problem I have with LDS specificaly, only becouse that is the one I have experience with. You omited the last sentence, and placed a period as if that was all I said. Why? Isnt that against the rules?

Second, what about the fighting in Ireland over religous differances with England?
That involed two denominations you listed as being of the same "Church".
What about all the branching off and the like from other denominations
that has been going on for years between churches becouse of differances of opinions within the church. All becouse of differant interpretations of the Bible.
I am not sure where you are coming from with any of this.
Can you please give me some referance to the facts you state about all denominations being under one religion and LDS and JW being different. I know very little about JW, so I wont speak about them, but I do know a bit about LDS, and know that they believe in the Trinity. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Every denomination has doctrine, rules, etc. The only completly free of rules church I know of is Unitarian. There are the "Born again" christians who see the "grace" as being the most important, but that still does'nt mean they run around sinning without fear of God. Actually the Catholics are the ones that let you "confess" and say hail maries for true repentance. What about that. Is that not "works"?
It seems to me that if you believe in Jesus, and that he died for your sins, then you are Christian. Period. Becouse you may have a certain governing guidline you believe in that differs from another does not make you or them wrong. I would go so far as to say that there is probly nobody that knows exactly what is expected of you as a Christian, Buddist, whatever.
If you feel you have the answers about the afterlife and the love you feel, then more power to you. But it is just plain wrong to demeen someone else for their answers that they "know" is right for them. Living by a set of rules does not mean you have no grace. If you have a revelation, and pass that information on to others, some will disagree and not believe you and call you rediculous. Some will follow you to the end. Either way it is all faith. Each to their own.
Not yours to mine or else your going to hell. Unless you believe that of course.

[ 10-29-2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]

[Faceman]

Yorick, your comparison of Muslims and Mormons limps, admit it.
What the others obviously try to convey to you is that Christians are those people who follow Jesus Christ as the most important person (be he godly or not) in their religion.
While Jesus is a prophet in Islam too, he is not THE prophet for that is Mohammed.
The fact that some Christian denominations have chosen to get along with each other doesn't really make the others non-Christian again as they are still following Christ. The arguments you use are not very different from the arguments used during the great schisms.
You have a logical point in: "I am a Christian. He completely disagrees with my faith, so he is not a Christian" but keep in mind that this also works the other way round and that he may consider himself a Christian and you none.
Most people I know would call the Mormons Christians and not another religion. You are entitled to your opinion but you cannot claim the term "Christian" for yourself alone, as another one might feel as one wheter you like it or not.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by LordKathen: I have exremely personal experience with Mormons. I witness what can be done to someone on the negetive side of religion. This is the problem I have with LDS specificaly.

As have I. As do I.


[/QUOTE]First off, why did you change the text in my statement you quoted of me? You did not quote the whole text! Why is that? I said "This is the problem I have with LDS specificaly, only becouse that is the one I have experience with. You omited the last sentence, and placed a period as if that was all I said. Why? Isnt that against the rules?
[/QUOTE]I quoted the section I was agreeing with. I didn't change your words, only finished at the point I agreed with. The remainder of the sentence was not one that applied to me. This has been common practice in discussion in ones I've been involved with.

Second, what about the fighting in Ireland over religous differances with England? That involed two denominations you listed as being of the same "Church". What about all the branching off and the like from other denominations that has been going on for years between churches becouse of differances of opinions within the church. All becouse of differant interpretations of the Bible.

Kathen... for the life of me... I don't know how many times I've posted this on Ironworks.

The "troubles" have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with race. Problems resultant from Englands centuries long occupation and abuse of Ireland. The "Protestants" are descended from the Anglo-Scottish colonists. They have different surnames to the "Catholics" who are descended from the original Irish. The Wilsons of my family came from the north, and were protestant. I've been in Irish Catholic Churches and heard messages of peace.

Now, the troubles are even less about race, and more about two rival "gangs" (The IRA vs the Ulster Unionists) keeping protection money and power. Although the hatred of "Catholic" Irish kids is palpable. When I was the vehemence of these kids worried me no end.

In any case, my own personal experience of worshipping in a Catholic Church, recording Catholic artists, and teaching in a Christian Bible/Music college where in one class alone there was a South African Catholic, a Dutch Reformist, a Japanese Pentecostal, a Baptist from Queensland and others - is such that I can attest to the unity. Even though I have many problems with the Catholic Church, I have no doubt it is part of the Christian Church.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Taking off of what Faceman said, and more to the point, not deeming them "Christian" is one thing.... calling them a "cult" is another. I once left a church over an argument I had as to whether Mormons were a "cult."

If Christianity was called a Jewish cult, what is the problem with Mormonism being called a Christian cult?

In any case, true or not that's a silly reason to leave a church.

I was in hindsight a bit strong in using the word cult. "Sect" is more applicable. Or simply "another religion" even more so, seeing as the aforementioned Islam is not regarded as a christian sect.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Faceman: Yorick, your comparison of Muslims and Mormons limps, admit it. What the others obviously try to convey to you is that Christians are those people who follow Jesus Christ as the most important person (be he godly or not) in their religion. While Jesus is a prophet in Islam too, he is not THE prophet for that is Mohammed. The fact that some Christian denominations have chosen to get along with each other doesn't really make the others non-Christian again as they are still following Christ. The arguments you use are not very different from the arguments used during the great schisms. You have a logical point in: "I am a Christian. He completely disagrees with my faith, so he is not a Christian" but keep in mind that this also works the other way round and that he may consider himself a Christian and you none. Most people I know would call the Mormons Christians and not another religion. You are entitled to your opinion but you cannot claim the term "Christian" for yourself alone, as another one might feel as one wheter you like it or not.

Actually I feel it is quite strong. Time and geography seperate the two, otherwise the similarities are compelling.

Jesus is THE prophet in Islam, that will play a part at the end of time. Muhammad is the one who received the Qu'ran. The latest prophet. Just as Smith received the book of Mormon.

But don't take my word for it (who does here?) Read for yourself. Check out both Islam and Mormonism, and how Jesus is viewed in each, how the later Prophet is viewed in each, and how the bible is viewed next to the later revelation or the Qu'ran or Book of Mormon.

Then get back to me.

Until then I stand by what I said.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Chewie! You forgot the quote most pertaining to this thread!! "Religion is the opiate of the masses." - Karl (Groucho ) Marx

Yes, that wasn't listed on my source for the quotes, being a site dedicated to American freethinkers in particular.

I have an opinion on this though, I agree Marx's quote is quite pertaining.

Actually a this quote expresses a very similar sentiment as the alleged offensive signature, in my opinion.

It begins with the word 'religion' implying a general thought about religion. Then it describes religion as an opiate which, if you have ever spent any time with heroine addicts, certainly is addictive and certainly stymies thought. Finally it attributes religion, generally, as being both "addictive" as well as "thought-stopping" for the masses. ie. a great amount of people, but not all people and therefore not all religious people.

This last point is what sets it apart the most from the sentiment of Maelkin's sig quote. Quite literally, Maelikin only implicated an individual thinking mind in his quote, rather than the 'masses'. Of course he didn't name this individual thinking mind, which makes me wonder how anyone could be offended by a sentiment expressed about an undefined individual.

Regardless, I fail to see how this quote by Marx is any more or less allegedly offensive than Maelkin's previous sig quote.


In my opinion, I think this whole thread concerning the offensive sig is just a big bruhaha about nothing.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: In my opinion, I think this whole thread concerning the offensive sig is just a big bruhaha about nothing.

i may not agree with a word in this thread, but i will defend to the death our right to bruhaha. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by sultan: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: In my opinion, I think this whole thread concerning the offensive sig is just a big bruhaha about nothing.

i may not agree with a word in this thread, but i will defend to the death our right to bruhaha. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Oh yes I agree! The right to make a bruhaha as well as the right to make a bruhaha about making a bruhaha I will defend as well. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: The belief that I am saved through Jesus grace, and not earned through any works I do is a fundamental difference between myself and a Mormon that manifests many behavioural and lifestyle differences. Grace provides liberty from religious law. Grace provides freedom from guilt or redemptive, atoning, or perfection attaining actions. Grace says I am loved and accepted by God AS I AM. Grace says there is nothing more I need do, to make God love me more, nor have him welcome me into his kingdom, other than to accept the gift he's offered everyone. Grace says that I am equal to the holiest monk, the wisest prophet, the least sinful apostle. All are equal under grace. There are no levels for holier, wiser, more dedicated Christians.

If you would satisfy my curiosity and point me in the direction of where this line of think is specifically spelled out in the Bible.


In addition, If so-called 'true Christianity' is defined by 'grace' rather than 'works', then how is this explainified?
Link

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. 19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[1] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[2] " 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

From how I read it, Grace, or faith for that matter, isn't even mention here as the key to eternal life. Rather it seems that good works like earning rather than stealing, being truthful, giving to the poor (all possessions, ZIOKS!), honoring parents and doing good to others are what matter.

Where in the bible is this statement on how to achieve eternal life reconciled by being saved by Jesus grace as the sole way to recieve eternal life and the sole determining factor of whether or not a whole church or an individual's religious belief/practice is "truly" Christian or not?

[Yorick]

I'm such an insufferable arsehole. Sometimes I read what I've written and think... what the hell am I on? Who gives a rip?

So... consider this a broad apology for past and present offenses. I will undoubtably offend again, given my strong opinions, strong language and bullheaded persistence, coupled with a deep love and care for fellow believers who may or may not have crisis of faith when they read particular things.

I've resolved a lot of doubts. I have jumped headlong into things when they come up. I honestly explore those things which challenge my faith. The result has always been a strengthening of that faith. An increased assurance. Doubt, when conquered leads to assurance. I am very assured precisely because I am a cynic and sceptic who has challenged his upbringing, his existing mindset at whatever has been put on his plate. I have learned many things "the hard way".

So my reactions and persistence are not so much out of a defensiveness, but because for every challenge I read on internet forums, I am usually aware of answers because I've already explored the issues. Problems with the church? With organised religion? Mate, I've been burned to the core by politics in churches. I've walked out of most churches I walked into. I've sat and silently disagreed with preacher after preacher, writhed in agony listening to bad music, vomitted at shocking advice or ignorant regurgitation.

But I see benefit in those that go to church. I see inner strength. I see increased relationship. I see self worth improve, love grow. Knowledge and freedom and complex thought encouraged. I see God work in churches DESPITE the people running them, not because of them.

God will not be limited by human imperfection if he wants to reach someone.

Part of me worries for a struggling Christian that reads an attack and then has a crisis of faith, then taking years to resolve it and get back on track. All because some thoughtless git makes an incorrect attack on the bible or something else.

Faith is not easy. To have faith is a challenge. It is the challenge that gives it worth. Makes it valuable. But it is not easy. Growing up as a christian in Australia was not easy, being an entertainer who was a Christian was not easy. Faith takes choice, persistence and commitment. Faith is actually the commitment part of belief. Faith is strongest when belief is weakest.

So I get annoyed. I overreact when I see people unknowingly try and rob others of their lifes meaning.

Sure, it's a stupid and probably unnecessary reaction right? If the individuals faith means anything, they'll work through it right? I know all that. So help me.... I read, I respond.

I love my people. I love my church. I care about them. I love my God more than my life. I would be dead without my God. I would have committed suicide long ago without my God carrying me through my darkness. Even though I've raged against him, ignored him, questioned him. He loves me and fills my life with so many blessings I feel like the richest man alive.

So again. An apology for past present and future grievances. I will offend you again, and I'm sorry for it. I do enjoy chatting to you guys, and I do respect most of you.... everyone except for Melusorick.

So be safe, have a great Halloween, and my prayer is that God will bless each of you right now with an increased sense of love, of self worth, and self love as you read this, whether you know him, love him, hate him or couldn't care less. I pray that your day is filled with happiness, whether you like me or hate me.

Be safe all. Have a great night.

Hugh