The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: And a couple of comments: 1. Melusine: You can blame men (obviously!) for the idea that ‘woman is the principle of evil made flesh’! It sorta goes back to the religious teachers of pre-christian biblical (and some pagan) times; but it was really souped up by Catholicism. They decided to turn men (especially priests) off women big-time, and some really vitriolic stuff was written about women. Some of it puts blisters on your eyeballs! If you ever read ‘Name of the Rose’ by Umberto Eco, you will have some idea how the clergy were made to feel about women. Here are some less vitriolic comments: Tertullian: "Woman, you ought to go about clad in mourning and rags, your eyes filled with tears of remorse, to make us forget that you have been mankind’s destruction. Woman, you are the gate to Hell." Thomas Aquinas: "Woman is a rapidly growing weed, an imperfect being. Her body attains maturity more rapidly only because it is of less value, and nature is engaged less in her making. Women are born to be eternally maintained under the yoke of their lords and masters, (who are) endowed by nature with superiority in every respect, and therefore destined to rule." Origen: "Matrimony is impure and unholy; a means of sensual concupiscence."

F, thanks. I've read the Name of the Rose, obviously...
I wasn't exactly blaming men, I was just trying to explain my theory on why I thought Eve was less to blame than Adam.

Very interesting post you wrote...can't wait to see the reactions!


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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH
and the HADB &
Sultry Elflet

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Why does he create the world? I plan on asking Him that too. I suspect it is because He has love to give.

I just had to jump back in here with this one. I SO agree that, just perhaps, he created us just because he has love to give. It trickles down into those of us who serve Him, too. For small instance, I have this recurring masochistic tendency to adopt animals. I love them, give them a good home - all the best. Then they die and I am hurt to the depths of my soul. I have cried many times over the loss of a beloved pet. I asked my Mom once, why I keep doing this to myself. She told me that I have so much love to give and God knows that I will provide the best, loving environment for that pet so he gives me the strength to keep loving even when my heart is broken. (And I keep right on adopting more and loving the new ones just as much.)

We do the same to God sometimes. He takes us all in and loves us. He nurtures us. But there are those who completely reject Him and it breaks His heart. But He is strong enough to keep loving and keep trying. It's beautiful. I rejected Him for so many years. I was so mean and ugly to people. But once I got so down and couldn't see up, I heard this very soft "voice" and got this wonderful feeling of peace, so I went and questioned some Christian friends of mine (much like 250 is doing here) and they were able to explain things to me in a way I could finally understand.

Until you are truly ready to hear it, we can talk all day about God, but, 250, you may not understand until you really want to. Not knocking questioning things. I still do that. But now, when I try to say "Well, maybe there isn't a God after all" I just know in my heart that it's wrong. That presence is still there assuring me that He does exist. That he does love us.

I don't think anyone is asking you to go on "blind faith". Just really take a good look around. Look at it from an atomic level on up. I did. It's really neat. I can see why scientists try to disprove God in the mechanics of the Universe, but no matter how statistics may show that eventually it would happen - happen, yes; but to continue??? I don't think it could. Even if the Big Bang occurred, IMHO, that was God. But from an atomic level up, things revolve around other things. Circles - like the circle of life, planets circling a sun, etc. Beginning to end, I can see nothing BUT God's hand in it. Things are entirely too similar and structured. Sure, randomly, things could have eventually combined to create life, but I don't think it could continue to survive without someOne guiding it.

Ultimately, it seems as though you don't so much want to know why God loves "man", but why He should love YOU. If this is correct, you aren't alone there. Some of your earlier statements sound like you were a bit depressed - like why SHOULD he love us. I wondered that for years because I grew up with a very unpredictable father who didn't know how to show affection. I felt like I must be unlovable. That translated over to my relationship with God. I didn't want Him, because I didn't feel that he could love me. But love me, He does. And love YOU, he does. He's infinite and has no limit in His capacity to love. We don't have to be perfect for Him to love us, we just have to believe and trust.

I, too, have had prayers answered. There is no way that it was just "luck" or "random chance" that all of the things that I have prayed to happen have. I've prayed for things from the very personal to things worldwide - and had it happen. From cure from illness to rain to end the drought here. It's MARVELOUS! And I'm by no means perfect, yet He loves me enough to answer those prayers faithfully. Yes, I believe that, just a we have faith in Him, He has faith in us. He knows our hearts and our intentions and answers prayers accordingly. I try never to be selfish in what I ask. And I always ask much more frequently for others than for myself.

Oh, and to the original thread of this: I think everyone has some really interesting views of the Garden of Eden. I also feel that we may ALL be right. I think each example in the Bible may very well mean something different for all of us and to us. We are all different personalities and have had different life experiences, so we will all take a different meaning from this Book. As long as we don't try to change the inherent meaning, I don't think God minds. Just as 250 has to reword his sentences sometimes for clarification of his meaning, so, too, are we allowed to take different views of the same passage. There is no "wrong" or "right" meaning so long as you question the verse with the intention of understanding God and ourselves better.

P.S. 250 - keep right on questioning. That is the best way to grow. Grab on to that question and worry it like a Terrier might (Grrrr) until you throttle the question into submission. Doing this irritates my husband sometimes, but look at the last line of my signature and you'll see why I do it. God, I believe wants us to question everything. Not to disprove His existence, but so we will make sure we are serious in our faith. Without questions, we do not grow.

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"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

"I'm INVINCIBLE! ... You're a LOONEY!"

Dare to dream. Be bold enough to try.

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Posted by Tobbin

Ok, I don't mean to sound blasphemous myself here, but I'd like to add my two cents as well:

1. Satan/Devil/Snake, whatever you want to call this entity, IMHO, came before Adam & Eve. It is my belief that Satan was the first creation towards mankind that GOD attempted. Satan didn't turn out exactly how GOD had wanted, so therefore decided to make another attempt. He/She did not destroy SATAN because GOD loved his creation (he/she was pretty lonely at this time. Besides, how many people like to destroy their very 1ST creation living or not?) Since God knew that Satan had the capacity for evil, he created the garden as a test for his newer creations. Up until now, good and evil were only concepts and not factual, but being GOD, he/she grabbed all of this ether and manifested it into a tree.

2. No matter how it was that the fruit was taken, it was in the capacity to transfer BOTH good and evil into mankind. God being as he/she was, had given the tree that ability to hold the concepts so that mankind would be able to prosper. God knew that his new creations had the capability to partake of the fruit and also knew that by partaking of the fruit, the people that they were, would cease to exist. Therefore God had not lied to his creations. Only that his creations had not realized his true meaning. In any event, evil came to be a part of mankind. That is why it is stated that you are born of sin. Because the concepts transfer to you when you are born/created.

3. No matter how it was that the fruit was taken, it was in the capacity to transfer BOTH good and evil into mankind. God being as he/she was, had given the tree that ability to hold the concepts so that mankind would be able to prosper. God knew that his new creations had the capability to partake of the fruit and also knew that by partaking of the fruit, the people that they were, would cease to exist. Therefore God had not lied to his creations. Only that his creations had not realized his true meaning. In any event, evil came to be a part of mankind. That is why it is stated that you are born of sin. Because the concepts transfer to you when you are born/created.[/b]

Flotsdale replies.

Tobbin, not to be insulting, honestly, but your point that I have marked #1 just cracked me up!
Can I ask you something, Tobbin? Do you believe the bible is god's word?
If you do, then you really need to reconsider point #1. Truly!!!
If you don't - then of course, your speculation is as good as any other, lol!

#2/3. It wasn't the fruit itself that had the power to 'transfer' good and evil into Adam and Eve - if that were the case, Eve's eyes would have 'been opened' as soon as she ate the fruit. They were not. It was the disobedience itself, which destroyed their innocence.
I take your point that they 'died' by 'becaming different people' inasmuch as they now had an understanding they did not have previously - but since they had expected physical death (no other type was ever suggested to them) then they would have believed god had spoken something not-True when they did not die.

Bear this in mind, too - if god had MEANT either a 'spiritual' death, or a 'death' of personality/innocence, then it was very remiss of him (to say the least) not to have informed them of that. While we cannot actually (I suppose) accuse god of an outright lie in that circumstance, we CAN accuse him of misleading those he was supposed to love, him being their dad, and all!

However, I do not believe that to have been the case.



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[Tobbin]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Posted by Tobbin Ok, I don't mean to sound blasphemous myself here, but I'd like to add my two cents as well: 1. Satan/Devil/Snake, whatever you want to call this entity, IMHO, came before Adam & Eve. It is my belief that Satan was the first creation towards mankind that GOD attempted. Satan didn't turn out exactly how GOD had wanted, so therefore decided to make another attempt. He/She did not destroy SATAN because GOD loved his creation (he/she was pretty lonely at this time. Besides, how many people like to destroy their very 1ST creation living or not?) Since God knew that Satan had the capacity for evil, he created the garden as a test for his newer creations. Up until now, good and evil were only concepts and not factual, but being GOD, he/she grabbed all of this ether and manifested it into a tree. 2. No matter how it was that the fruit was taken, it was in the capacity to transfer BOTH good and evil into mankind. God being as he/she was, had given the tree that ability to hold the concepts so that mankind would be able to prosper. God knew that his new creations had the capability to partake of the fruit and also knew that by partaking of the fruit, the people that they were, would cease to exist. Therefore God had not lied to his creations. Only that his creations had not realized his true meaning. In any event, evil came to be a part of mankind. That is why it is stated that you are born of sin. Because the concepts transfer to you when you are born/created. 3. No matter how it was that the fruit was taken, it was in the capacity to transfer BOTH good and evil into mankind. God being as he/she was, had given the tree that ability to hold the concepts so that mankind would be able to prosper. God knew that his new creations had the capability to partake of the fruit and also knew that by partaking of the fruit, the people that they were, would cease to exist. Therefore God had not lied to his creations. Only that his creations had not realized his true meaning. In any event, evil came to be a part of mankind. That is why it is stated that you are born of sin. Because the concepts transfer to you when you are born/created. Flotsdale replies. Tobbin, not to be insulting, honestly, but your point that I have marked #1 just cracked me up! Can I ask you something, Tobbin? Do you believe the bible is god's word? If you do, then you really need to reconsider point #1. Truly!!! If you don't - then of course, your speculation is as good as any other, lol! #2/3. It wasn't the fruit itself that had the power to 'transfer' good and evil into Adam and Eve - if that were the case, Eve's eyes would have 'been opened' as soon as she ate the fruit. They were not. It was the disobedience itself, which destroyed their innocence. I take your point that they 'died' by 'becaming different people' inasmuch as they now had an understanding they did not have previously - but since they had expected physical death (no other type was ever suggested to them) then they would have believed god had spoken something not-True when they did not die. Bear this in mind, too - if god had MEANT either a 'spiritual' death, or a 'death' of personality/innocence, then it was very remiss of him (to say the least) not to have informed them of that. While we cannot actually (I suppose) accuse god of an outright lie in that circumstance, we CAN accuse him of misleading those he was supposed to love, him being their dad, and all! However, I do not believe that to have been the case. [/B]

But don't you see, by using the dad analogy, you prove my point. God knew that we could not handle basic truths and concepts, even after we were introduced to them. Even today, there are a great many people confused on the subject of good and evil (gray areas). Very similar to telling a child to look both ways before crossing the street. We do that, although they do not always listen. Do we understand it? Most likely not until we are thrust in that situation and see the traffic that would run us over. Just because you know about good and evil doesn't mean that you know how to react to it if you have never heard/understood of it before.


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Protectorate of the OHF
Death Waits 4 U ALL

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Tobbin: But don't you see, by using the dad analogy, you prove my point. God knew that we could not handle basic truths and concepts, even after we were introduced to them. Even today, there are a great many people confused on the subject of good and evil (gray areas). Very similar to telling a child to look both ways before crossing the street. We do that, although they do not always listen. Do we understand it? Most likely not until we are thrust in that situation and see the traffic that would run us over. Just because you know about good and evil doesn't mean that you know how to react to it if you have never heard/understood of it before.

How do I do that, then?

Adam and Eve were innocent, but they were not children. They were two adults and Adam at least had apparantly spent time conversing with god, so was not exactly ignorant. They were also perfect - including high intelligence, as well as phsical perfection. And although Eve was deceived by Satan, Adam certainly was not. When he ate the fruit he knew what he was doing as is made clear at 1 Timothy 2:14. That is why Adam carries much greater 'blame' than Eve. SHE did not realise what she had done, but Adam did and CARRIED ON and did it himself anyway!
The 'dad' analogy, therefore, does not prove your point, imho!

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[Larry_OHF]

In response to something I read earlier, God knew, (he being all-knowing) that when he created mortals, they would disobey. It is only given to Jesus Christ to be perfect, so we all fall short of our expectations. Adam and Eve cannot be considered any different than that.
Since God already knew that mankind would fall from grace, He already had Jesus lined up to save us. Christ's role in the Plan of Salvation was foreseen as needed.
As for the part of "Eat and ye shall surely die" ~ God, and Thou shalt not surely die ~Satan...that can be explained like this...
Temporal death- Body dies
Spiritual death- Living outside of the presence of God (the Spirit cannot actually die, but the loss of God's presence in one's life is termed asd Spiritual death.
When God said taht they shall surely die, he did not say that they would fall dead at that moment. But they did fall from his presence, meaning that they had to be cast out. The scriptures point out that Adam and Eve lived a long time after that, and had children. When Satan said "thou shall not surely die, he was answering in half-truths. He was telling Eve that she would not instantly lose her life. What he did not tell her is that she would eventually suffer physical death, but since he is satan, he didn't feel the need to include that part.


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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: In response to something I read earlier, God knew, (he being all-knowing) that when he created mortals, they would disobey. It is only given to Jesus Christ to be perfect, so we all fall short of our expectations. Adam and Eve cannot be considered any different than that. Since God already knew that mankind would fall from grace, He already had Jesus lined up to save us. Christ's role in the Plan of Salvation was foreseen as needed. As for the part of "Eat and ye shall surely die" ~ God, and Thou shalt not surely die ~Satan...that can be explained like this... Temporal death- Body dies Spiritual death- Living outside of the presence of God (the Spirit cannot actually die, but the loss of God's presence in one's life is termed asd Spiritual death. When God said taht they shall surely die, he did not say that they would fall dead at that moment. But they did fall from his presence, meaning that they had to be cast out. The scriptures point out that Adam and Eve lived a long time after that, and had children. When Satan said "thou shall not surely die, he was answering in half-truths. He was telling Eve that she would not instantly lose her life. What he did not tell her is that she would eventually suffer physical death, but since he is satan, he didn't feel the need to include that part.

Oh, sheesh, Larry! I get so fed up of that old excuse being trotted out all the time.

Look - if you tell someone they will die if they eat something, the person EXPECTS to DIE. DROP DOWN DEAD.
If you only mean they will fall out of your favour/die spititually (however bad you think that is) then it it is DECEPTION not to tell them so!!! Grrrrrr!!!!!

Satan was telling half truths? SO WAS GOD, too!

Which, then, was worse?

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Oh, sheesh, Larry! I get so fed up of that old excuse being trotted out all the time. Look - if you tell someone they will die if they eat something, the person EXPECTS to DIE. DROP DOWN DEAD. If you only mean they will fall out of your favour/die spititually (however bad you think that is) then it it is DECEPTION not to tell them so!!! Grrrrrr!!!!! Satan was telling half truths? SO WAS GOD, too! Which, then, was worse?

Fall of Man (Bible Dictionary)

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen.2,3,4. The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurances in the history of man. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve had phicical bodies but no blood. There was no sin, no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations. With the eating of the "forbidden fruit", Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life. Adam became the first flesh upon the earth, meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam's fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind.
The fall ws no surprise to the Lord. It was a necessary step in the progress of man, and provisions for a Savior had been made even before the fall had occured. Jesus Christ came to atone for the fall of Adam and also for man's individual sins.



This quote is not just what I believe, but what is supported by 11 million members world-wide in our church.




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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: In the Garden of Eden, God said to Adam that he could eat of the fruit of any of the trees of the Garden, except for one: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (acutally my translation says "bad" instead of "evil" but the latter sounds more impressive ) The Garden of Eden was a paradise on earth, without work or toil, where Adam and Eve simply wandered and ate of the fruits of the earth (And did Lord knows what else, being naked and all ) When Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden tree, to gain the knowledge of good and evil, God punished them by driving them and their descendants out of the Garden of Eden forever, and cursing they and mankind with hardship and turmoil and eating of the dust of the earth. According to Genesis in the Bible, Adam and Eve really had gained the knowledge of Good and Evil from eating of the tree, to which they had been blind before. This myth has long fascinated me, but i am not sure what it means. I have a theory, a somewhat unconventional one. Anybody have any thoughts they would like to share, as to why Adam and Eve should be kicked out of paradise after gaining the knowledge of good and evil?

Religion's subtle way of saying 'shut up and dont ask questions????



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[onthepequod]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Oh, sheesh, Larry! I get so fed up of that old excuse being trotted out all the time. Look - if you tell someone they will die if they eat something, the person EXPECTS to DIE. DROP DOWN DEAD. If you only mean they will fall out of your favour/die spititually (however bad you think that is) then it it is DECEPTION not to tell them so!!! Grrrrrr!!!!! Satan was telling half truths? SO WAS GOD, too! Which, then, was worse?

Yes, you're partially correct. If you tell someone today, "they will die if they eat something," then they will assume that you mean fall over and die. But remember Adam and Eve were the first humans on this globe without the experience of seeing others die from posioning. In fact they, at that point in time had never seen death. They had no point of referrence for what it means to fall over and die. That is other than any knowledge that God imparted to hem during those times that God talk with them in the garden. To say Adam and Eve would assume the outcome would be something that they were quite possibly not even aware of, is a jump in logic. Quiet presumabley God had conveyed his intent that something terrible would happen where they would spiritually die. Also as I have pointed out in one previous theological discussion, translations while achieving a high degree of accuracy are rarely perfect. I would have to agree with Larry, God's intent was spiritual death and no misleading, on God's behalf, took place.

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[This message has been edited by onthepequod (edited 09-09-2001).]