Newspaper article (by me!)

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:

Yorick, I looked through the list of apparently communist countries and I entirely agreed with you. None of them had worked properly. But if you read what I said earlier you will find I have already mentioned this. I will repeat briefly:

I think socialism/communism in one country is very, very, very, unlikely to work.

If you read the communist manifesto or Capital or anything like that you will find that it is supposed to be a global force. By necessity those countries had to maintain a capitalist economy to trade with the outside world. As a result they were beset by capitalists on the outside and corruption on the inside. You cannot operate a communist system with a capitalist mindframe (I agree with you again it would seem on this point but hear me out...) or a capitalist economy. Communism really needs to operate in an autarchy (like the Isreali kibbutz's). This is the reason Cuba has done so well IMO - they were forced by a ridiculously restrictive blockade to become almost entirely self sufficient. This means that unlike a lot of countries they did not have to adopt extremely repressive measures to ensure the survival of communism. They have recently had to adapt their economy to make way for the tourist industry, so I would agree they have become a lot more capitalist.

This is the root of a lot of the problems in Cuba today - particularly the prostitution and corruption ones. These never used to exist in any kind of significant form before the cuban economy changed character.

I would say that communism has to be a global force, like capitalism, in order to succeed. This is why I find it weird that people point to lists of countries where it has failed. Frankly I am amazed that it even works in as many as it does. It needs to be global and that will not happen for a while, to say the least.

To the point that it ignores greed, therefore meaning that it can't work. I will keep this short as it is a little boring. What is human nature? Where do you get the proof that human nature is based on greed? There isn't any - people think that it is self evident in our society. The key words here are IN OUR SOCIETY. We have built up a mind frame of greed, it wasn't there already. Every waking moment of your life under capitalism is dedicated to yourself and your family so is it any wonder that people are greedy. And then when we try and change this suprisingly people's minds don't change overnight. Communism is a long process but it is also inevitable and it will hopefully overcome the problems in our society of greed and inequality.

BTW Yorick, wrong way round. Socialism first, then Communism. Not vice versa. Or at least - that is the theory.

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No no. Communism then Socialism. Communism was always meant to be temporary. One way to attaining true Socialism, but not the only way.

Regarding the global movement issue. If that truly is the case you may as well give up now. How is anyone going to persuade the entire world to pursue a single ideology without repressing free thought or forcing the ideology?

People don't want Communism. Those that lived under it got rid of it as soon as they were able. If they couldn't they left. Artistic expression is nullified totally. Name one brilliant recognised composer, visual artist, writer or poet from the communist era.

It's an anathaema to expressive life and freedom.

Secondly, we were talking one half of the globe at one point. It very much was "the world" to those in it.

I spent time with a former East Berliner, previously a commited communist who's ideological world came crashing down when the sytem collapsed. It created a void, but since then, in his words, "my own life has become much better". Travel, music, radio djing for a multi-cultural station. Freedom of choice.

Socialism has many admirable aspects. Communism however tosses in too many negative weights on my scales.

Anyhow, my point being that for all intents and purposes the communist nations were a "world". There are many worlds on this planet. The Mandarin sphere has at Taipei as an artistic hub, Beijing a political centre. It's another world, with artists and fashion independent from say the English or Spanish worlds.

The communist world was an entity, and in totality it fell down. It didn't work. Services were a joke for a start. Competition usually leads to better quality and efficiency.

The same went for it's government. No accountability. No chance for the people to "fire them" if they screwed up.

Basically it's been proven. It's futile to say "oh but it only works if the whole globe is" because that's an unrealistic unattainable fantasy, reliant on controlling too many variables. You can bring up Cuba as an example of Communism working in a small entity, and I will bring up Singapore, Switzerland, and say Hong Kong as example of capitalism working in small nations.

Basically people should be free to be capitalist or communist if they desire. Capitalism doesn't need to be global for it to work, but you're saying communism does?

Which then is better on that point alone?

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
To the point that it ignores greed, therefore meaning that it can't work. I will keep this short as it is a little boring. What is human nature? Where do you get the proof that human nature is based on greed? There isn't any - people think that it is self evident in our society. The key words here are IN OUR SOCIETY. We have built up a mind frame of greed, it wasn't there already. Every waking moment of your life under capitalism is dedicated to yourself and your family so is it any wonder that people are greedy. And then when we try and change this suprisingly people's minds don't change overnight. Communism is a long process but it is also inevitable and it will hopefully overcome the problems in our society of greed and inequality.

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Barry, pretty much every major religious thinking agrees with the sentiment of greed underlying human nature and seeks to change it. Even a cursory glance at history shows that no matter what the society or ideology, human nature and greed go hand in hand, taking a merry dance towards self destruction.

Secondly speak for yourself Barry. How can you know what every waking moment of my life is geared towards? If every moment of YOUR life is geared towards yourself then change you. Don't make the assumption that others are not already on a different path, and seek to change them.

I think this is the root problem with your efforts and subsequent frustrations voiced in the other thread "what's the point". You are seeking to change others, ignoring their free will and right to choice. The very gifts you have and are excercising in seeking a Communist situation. Why seek to deny others the same?

Spread information by all means. Information is empowering and allows individuals to make informed choices. But actively seeking to achieve changed mindsets in third parties is doomed to misery in either you, the third party or both. On an individual level - ie marriages and one to one relationships where one wants and demands the other to change - and en masse, respecting human volition is vital to harmonious existence.

I'm a committed Christian, but I've never been one to actively attempt to convert anyone. No-one ever "converts anyone" anyway. An individual makes the choice to change their mindset. At best all I can ever do is present information when asked about my beliefs, but that is all. Anything further leads to resentment and animosity in the third party as evident in hatred of "bible bashers", Morman and Jehovas Witness doorknockers, and say Communist activists (see post above).

[Magness]

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:

You have said this Magness, we are all pretty clear where you come from on this issue. Could you please explain why it is evil in your mind rather than just referring to me as evil continually. I do not mind in the slightest as long as you give me your reasons.

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The sky is blue, fishes swin in the sea, fascism and communism are evil.

quote:

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Originally posted by BtS:

If you read the communist manifesto or Capital or anything like that you will find that it is supposed to be a global force. By necessity those countries had to maintain a capitalist economy to trade with the outside world. As a result they were beset by capitalists on the outside and corruption on the inside. You cannot operate a communist system with a capitalist mindframe (I agree with you again it would seem on this point but hear me out...) or a capitalist economy. Communism really needs to operate in an autarchy (like the Isreali kibbutz's). This is the reason Cuba has done so well IMO - they were forced by a ridiculously restrictive blockade to become almost entirely self sufficient. This means that unlike a lot of countries they did not have to adopt extremely repressive measures to ensure the survival of communism. They have recently had to adapt their economy to make way for the tourist industry, so I would agree they have become a lot more capitalist.

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This sounds to me more like an excuse. "We cannot succeed on the small or the medium scale. We will only be able to succeed on a global scale, after the competion has been eliminated." What will happen then. Communism would do what is always has done and always would do. The only difference is that there'd be nobody to say that it failed. The dictatorship of the proletariate would simply proclaim "success" and slaughter any and all who disagreed.

quote:

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Originally posted by BtS:

To the point that it ignores greed, therefore meaning that it can't work. I will keep this short as it is a little boring. What is human nature? Where do you get the proof that human nature is based on greed? There isn't any - people think that it is self evident in our society. The key words here are IN OUR SOCIETY. We have built up a mind frame of greed, it wasn't there already. Every waking moment of your life under capitalism is dedicated to yourself and your family so is it any wonder that people are greedy. And then when we try and change this suprisingly people's minds don't change overnight. Communism is a long process but it is also inevitable and it will hopefully overcome the problems in our society of greed and inequality.

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Barry (and Yorick), another phrase for "greed" is self-interest. People are not always "greedy", but they will always act in their own "self-interest". I am not a bleeping damned ant, waiting to be told where to work, when to sleep, what and when to eat, where I can work, what to think!!! And no bleeping thrice-damned communist government will EVER dictate these to me, a free, honest, honorable, rugged-individualist, freedom-loving American!!!

quote:

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Partial quote from above by BtS:

Every waking moment of your life under capitalism is dedicated to yourself and your family so is it any wonder that people are greedy.

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That is so grossly and completely untrue!!!

How does this explain the self sacrifice of the firefighters and police officers in NYC who died attempting to save thousands of people they didn't know!!! I don't know a single one of them, but I honor their sacrifice and devotion to duty!!!

How does this explain the brave citizens on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania who fought to retake control of the jet rather than let the terrorist cowards crash it into another building and kill hundreds or thousands more people? Those brave people knew that they were most likely dead, but they sacrificed themselves for their fellow citizens without big brother government telling them to do so or forcing them. They did it for love of family and love of country and love of FREEDOM!!!

How does this explain the hundreds of Red Cross volunteers that dropped everything they were doing to rush to the disaster zones to help???

How does it explain the thousands of NYC residents who rushed to the hospitals to donate blood when it was thought that there'd be a need?

It seems that every one of these people I've referenced above has (or had) a few waking moments that were not dedicated to capitalist greed!!!

[KHaN]

Good article and outstanding replies...nice to see everyone being civil (almost [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) to eachother. I've made it clear how I feel in other posts about the Administration and the current 'conflict' we are involved in. The only thing I can say here is it HURTS to see innocent civilians (bothsides) dead or mangled with no future but pain and families without fathers/mothers/sons/daughters. I HURTS to see caskets slowly being unloaded off of a C-130, the American flag drapped over them and taps being played. I lost a good friend while serving in Korea in the U.S. Army and I can still feel it 4 years later. It's amazing the price the average person pays for being a citizen in his or her country...don't know what I'm talking about, ask your grandfathers or father about WW2, Korea, Vietnam...etc.
Sorry bout that but I had to say it.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Magness:

How does this explain the self sacrifice of the firefighters and police officers in NYC who died attempting to save thousands of people they didn't know!!! I don't know a single one of them, but I honor their sacrifice and devotion to duty!!!

How does this explain the brave citizens on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania who fought to retake control of the jet rather than let the terrorist cowards crash it into another building and kill hundreds or thousands more people? Those brave people knew that they were most likely dead, but they sacrificed themselves for their fellow citizens without big brother government telling them to do so or forcing them. They did it for love of family and love of country and love of FREEDOM!!!

How does this explain the hundreds of Red Cross volunteers that dropped everything they were doing to rush to the disaster zones to help???

How does it explain the thousands of NYC residents who rushed to the hospitals to donate blood when it was thought that there'd be a need?

It seems that every one of these people I've referenced above has (or had) a few waking moments that were not dedicated to capitalist greed!!!

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Well said. Very true and all that.

People assume that communism needs to be a dictatorship to work, it does not. All previous "communist" countries have simply been brutal dictatorships using communism as a tool for total social control and suppression of dissent. If you have ever read any of Marx’s works you will see how different what his vision was to those who applied it. It IS possible to apply communism as a democracy and in a peaceful and humane manner.

For example from p108 of the German ideology:
"Anyone in whom there is a potential Raphael should be allowed to develop without hindrance"

If we look at society today, we in the west have far more than we will ever need. Enough food is grown to feed everyone, enough clothes are made to cover everyone, and yet there is still inequality. This inequality is artificially sustained by capitalism and the mindset created by it, only through communism and socialism shall humanity ever have a chance at changing the base inequity of life. The American government is simply the tool of the current ruling class (the rich) and therefore has no interest in redressing the global imbalance of wealth, the composition and polices of Bush of Bush’s government are enough to tell this at a glance.

Under capitalism you have no freedom. Everything you do is dictated by Money.

Communism is the only way.
In time people will see this and perhaps one day start the long journey to freedom.

[Magness]

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Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:

It IS possible to apply communism as a democracy and in a peaceful and humane manner.

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Yeah ... right.... sure. Peaceful and humane manner??? Yeah, sure.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:

If we look at society today, we in the west have far more than we will ever need. Enough food is grown to feed everyone, enough clothes are made to cover everyone, and yet there is still inequality. This inequality is artificially sustained by capitalism and the mindset created by it, only through communism and socialism shall humanity ever have a chance at changing the base inequity of life. The American government is simply the tool of the current ruling class (the rich) and therefore has no interest in redressing the global imbalance of wealth, the composition and polices of Bush of Bush's government are enough to tell this at a glance.

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What a load of complete, unadulterated BS!!! If you don't have enough food, then go buy some. If you don't have the money to buy food, get a damned job!!! If you still don't have enough money, get a 2nd job!!! If you don't have the skills to get a good paying job, go look in the mirror. The only person to blame is yourself!!!

The inequality that you describe is largely accounted for by the fact that there are successful and unsuccessful people in any society. The succcessful people are well-off. The very successful people are rich. The unsuccessful people are neither.

I am not a rich person. I am currently an umemployed computer programmer. "The American government ... has no interest in redressing the global imbalance of wealth..." And neither do I!!! The United States grew to its current position in the world in only 225 years due to hard work and perserverence!!! Furthermore, the US did not seek out its current status. We have WW1 and WW2 to thank for that. Without those two wars, the American people may have been content to stay on our side of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans and ignore the rest of the world. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... Germany (and Italy and Japan and Austria-Hungary) had to get all rowdy in the first half of the 20th century and the US was forced to come to the rescue, twice.

quote:

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Originally posted by comrade Dramnek_Ulk:

Under capitalism you have no freedom. Everything you do is dictated by Money.

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What kind of dope are you smoking??? I suppose that the people bought food (what little where was available) with good will?

Hey here's another clue!!! The US farm economy is so productive because of simple capitalistic supply and demand, not because some bleeping damned government commissar told them what to grow. Heck, here in the US, the government has to pay farmers NOT to grow too much!!! That sure as hell would not be the case under Herr Marx's view of paradise.

quote:

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Communism is the only way.
In time people will see this and perhaps one day start the long journey to freedom.

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As I said before...
The sky is blue, fishes swin in the sea, fascism and communism are evil.

Why is communism evil? Both China and the USSR spend the 2nd half of the 20th century trying to prove that they could committ genocide as well as Nazi Germany!!! I can think of 20 million or more reasons to hate communism!!!

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Magness:

What a load of complete, unadulterated BS!!! If you don't have enough food, then go buy some. If you don't have the money to buy food, get a damned job!!! If you still don't have enough money, get a 2nd job!!! If you don't have the skills to get a good paying job, go look in the mirror. The only person to blame is yourself!!!

The inequality that you describe is largely accounted for by the fact that there are successful and unsuccessful people in any society. The succcessful people are well-off. The very successful people are rich. The unsuccessful people are neither.

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Yep, I just told this crazy Somalian guy to stop bugging me. He had the nerve to ask for some food when he could just go and pick some up from the rotten dead carcass of a cow barely 15 yards away from him. The vultures? Well, even more food for him I say.

Furthermore, he had just resigned from his job as a diamond finder. In a weeks work he would have been able to buy a full bucket of water. If thats not enough for him, well, he can always get a second job! I just hope he doesnt try to blame us for being unsuccessful.

The. World. Is. Unfair.

Pure and simple and that is a fact. Of course, the US is not to blame nor any other single country. It is everybodys fault, but the bulk of it has to go to the Group of 8, the IMF, the World Bank and all of our rulers around the world in almost every country. They just dont care. They dont care for the environment, dont care for the poor, and dont care for almost anything that doesnt involve a financial benefit to them.

[Barry the Sprout]

We've done it again! We have entered a discussion about America - it is not about America exclusively.

And guys, it was you who said that human nature was greedy. I agreed with you under capitalism, and then you started arguing with me! I can't win here! What I would say is that the examples given show how human nature is not truly greedy. This supports my argument not yours IMO. Human nature is to care for other people in all ways - but capitalism twists it into this strange kind of contortion we have now. Humans are not intended to be greedy, that is where my beleif in Christianity comes into my argument I am afraid. We have made ourselves into this greedy bastard society, but every now and then something happens that causes us to show our true nature. This was what I meant earlier when I said that communism would work. Sorry if I didn't explain it properly.

Also Yorick, Marxism is one of the few things I know inside out. I am sorry to tell you that (in your own words [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) you don't know what you are talking about j/k. The practical definition of socialism under classical marxist terms is the transitionary stage before communism is reached. Sorry but that is true, not just my opinion. Dramnek, you know marxism... help me out here!

Also Magness thank you for finally giving your reasons. They are good reasons I will admit. But can I just say that is Stalin or Mao are considered good communists then I don't want the word associated with me. A state that works for the good of the whole does not need to kill people, so they are wrong. I am just as opposed to stalinism and Maoism as you I am afraid.

Thanks Khan BTW! Sentiment appreciated.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
We've done it again! We have entered a discussion about America - it is not about America exclusively.

And guys, it was you who said that human nature was greedy. I agreed with you under capitalism, and then you started arguing with me! I can't win here! What I would say is that the examples given show how human nature is not truly greedy. This supports my argument not yours IMO. Human nature is to care for other people in all ways - but capitalism twists it into this strange kind of contortion we have now. Humans are not intended to be greedy, that is where my beleif in Christianity comes into my argument I am afraid. We have made ourselves into this greedy bastard society, but every now and then something happens that causes us to show our true nature. This was what I meant earlier when I said that communism would work. Sorry if I didn't explain it properly.

Also Yorick, Marxism is one of the few things I know inside out. I am sorry to tell you that (in your own words [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) you don't know what you are talking about j/k. The practical definition of socialism under classical marxist terms is the transitionary stage before communism is reached. Sorry but that is true, not just my opinion. Dramnek, you know marxism... help me out here!

Also Magness thank you for finally giving your reasons. They are good reasons I will admit. But can I just say that is Stalin or Mao are considered good communists then I don't want the word associated with me. A state that works for the good of the whole does not need to kill people, so they are wrong. I am just as opposed to stalinism and Maoism as you I am afraid.

Thanks Khan BTW! Sentiment appreciated.

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Marxism is not the only brand of Communism. Leninism and Stalinism were the Russian interpretations for a start.

I stand by what I say, but will perhaps quantify. Communism, as existed in Russia, was meant to be a transition to bring about true Socialism, yet failed, largely due to the inability of the government to let go of power.

This isn't my opinion either, but information I've recieved from third parties. If it's a case of reversing definitions then so be it. However, you would hardly call Russia a Socialist state. Inequality was everywhere. There's not meant to be classes under Socialism right?
Well, Russia failed on that point. The ruling class is a class.

To date only one Russian leader in the entire history of the nation, has let go of power of his/her own volition, and not by death or coup d'etat.

Yeltsin.

Perhaps you could explain how Socialism brings about Communism rather than the other way round. Perhaps we need to clarify our definitions.

Finally, on the Christian matter, do you mean to say we were not created flawed? The potential for sin was necessary to show extreme love, forgiveness and self-sacrifice, and to spur discovery and relationship with God.

Every moment we have the option to choose the light or the dark action, yet without God there is no reason to do so, and nor is it possible to avoid dark actions. Humans are imperfect. Your Christian ideology would recognise this, as that's the whole reason for Jesus. He doesn't make us perfect but atones and enables relationship.

Besides, like all our failings, what we call "greed" depending on the context can be a positive action. Survival instict, self preservation. Shoreing up provisions for a rainy day.

Our failings are also our strengths given different circumstances. Think Stubbornness and flexability. Both can be very valuable and yet very problematic given different situations.

Adaptation (a fundamental human abitity) and discernment become a necessity.