"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Yorick, I know of several Southern Baptist groups that go door to door. They have certainly come to my door on several occassions. Not to mention that Mormons consider themselves as Christians, AFAIK. ( I went to a Mormon church for a few years myself and that was the impression I got)

Considering yourself (true) christian, and having an affiliation with all the Christian churches are two different things.

I am defining "Christian Church" as being of the collection of affiliated churches with a link to the early christian churches, who though splitting remained in agreement about each others Christianity.
Roman Catholic -> Orthodox -> Protestant -> Pentecostal.

As I said, no Christian Church I've personally been involved in... including the Baptist Church, has ever doorknocked. I have never even heard of the practice outside Mormons and JWs.

Of course I could be wrong. Maybe it's an American phenomena though.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Yorick: Christianity rejects the book of Mormon, and the Watchtower monthly tracts. We only use the Bible.

Not quite, Catholics also use the popes' encyclics and the catechism. Not in a way the Mormon's use the book of mormon but certainly even more than the JWs use the Watchtower.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: I will. What do you mean when you say that you guarantee, you have as many problems with LDS as I do? Who said I had a "problem" with LDS specifically? Are you assuming what I think? Where did that come from? Why do you have a problem with them? Have they done something wrong to you?

You have said you have a problem with LDS before now. It came from your posts.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Faceman: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Christianity rejects the book of Mormon, and the Watchtower monthly tracts. We only use the Bible.

Not quite, Catholics also use the popes' encyclics and the catechism. Not in a way the Mormon's use the book of mormon but certainly even more than the JWs use the Watchtower. [/QUOTE]The Watchtower is the governing body of the Jehovahs Witnesses. It decrees theological truths that are followed in cultlike fashion.

I have read some encyclicals. The last one was a very sage work. It is nothing like a Watchtower tract.

I've gone so far as to call the Watchtower, or Jehovahs Witnesses, or whatever you want to call them, a cult due in part to the declaritive nature of the tracts.

The catechism is altogether different. Churches of the Anglican communion also have a catechism. I studied it when I was confirmed at age 14 or so.

Very different to the Book of Mormon or the Watchtower literature.

Then of course there is the whole hoohar over the Watchtower Bible. The New World translation, which was translated by a JW commitee. All self taught at Hebrew, and one guy trained in Greek. The errors it contains are seeable by first year Greek ctudents. I've seen through them and I'm a layman, yet the Watchtower uses this errant translation to purport it;s polythesitic theology of Jesus being A god not The Creator.

[Faceman]

My point was simply that Catholics do not only rely on the plain Bible but also on its interpretations by wise priests or the pope.
JWs rely on biblical interpretations of people they deem wise.
Looks rather similar to me.
I frankly prefer Catholic Church to the JWs but one who thinks the other way round may deride Catholics for clinging to the "erraneous" biblical interpretations of the pope.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by LordKathen: Well thats incredible. That is not typicaly the way most people think. I am fat, and after years of discrimination becouse of it I have become sensitive to fat remarks.

Really? You're fat? And all this time I thought you were human...

[LordKathen]

Lady Aberdene here. Thought I would answere for myselfe about a couple things. Mormans do beleive beleive in Christ as Gods son thus making us Christians. I do agree a lot of other religions do not think of us as Christians. I get that a lot. So I am Christian and my church does knock on doors. We do beleive we are the only true church and want to share that joy with everybody. I can say it like If we had a mirical drug to keep everyone healthy not only would you want to share it but even an obligation to get it to as many people as possible. We dont do group meeting with other religions. Our focus is not to please other religions or the public. Our focus is be the best we can be. Yeah, like the army(HeHe). Some things yorick said about the morman religion is just not true. Since you have a mormon friend you regard highly I am sure it would be easier to talk to him to get the truth. I get that you yorick are passionette and outspoken which can be a dangerous combination. With being a mormon and a mother of toddlers it is important for me to pick my battles. Some things just look over. happy debate ya'll

[LordKathen]

Yorick, Have you been here: http://www.mormons.org/search/1,9643,1226-1,00.html ?

Refering to my earlier posts about problems, I have stated specific problems that I have with the LDS church and religion in general. The governing laws of all religions is what I have a problem with. Someones personal faith is there own, and I dont judge that. To me a religion is a governing force to group faiths together for the benefit of that religion. I have exremely personal experience with Mormons. I witness what can be done to someone on the negetive side of religion. This is the problem I have with LDS specificaly, only becouse that is the one I have the experiance with. You arrogantly seperate Mormons from all other Christians. I have not done this. I have talked to people from other religions and it is the same law driven "rot" as you say.
Your arrogance on these manners is astounding and not productive for a healthy debate. You seem to have all this knowledge about all the different faiths and beliefs and religions. I have a hard time believing you have experienced it all and know all. To me you are acting out of defence.
I have not demeened your faith, just your demeening of other's faith. You cannot garantee anything Yorick.

Once again we are at a point where things may get to personal. I will not post on this anymore. Believe it or not, I have respect for you Yorick, and would like to keep some.
Good day.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mrs Lady Kathen: 1. Mormans do beleive beleive in Christ as Gods son thus making us Christians. 2. I do agree a lot of other religions do not think of us as Christians. I get that a lot. 3. We do beleive we are the only true church and want to share that joy with everybody. 4. We dont do group meeting with other religions. Our focus is not to please other religions or the public.

Hi there. Thanks for you input. These four points you brought up are precisely what I was talking about. They support what I was saying. [img]smile.gif[/img]

1. The Christian Churches believe that Jesus is God the Son. God on this Earth. Emmanuel - "God With Us." You can follow Christ, as Muslims and others may do, but what seperates Christianity from every other religion is the belief in Jesus as God, and that we are saved through his grace, not through any works.

2. The fact that you referred to the myriad Christian denominations as "other religions, also highlights the difference. Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Assemblies of God. Presbyterian. We are all ONE FAITH. We are all ONE CHURCH. The body of Christ. We have seperated and have a variety of meeting styles and governmental styles, but the declared articles of faith of each of the Christian Churches, and the willingness to meet together and co-operate at times, make it clear we are the one church.

I myself have taught at colleges from four denominations. I've been on worship teams from Anglican, Baptist and Christian City churches, and even Uniting Churches. We are the one faith, not a number of religions. Mormonism is a DIFFERENT RELIGION as you yourself stated.

The confusion is you are calling yourself Christian as though the word has an inherant value. It is simply a word used to describe a collection of people with shared faith. Where people diverge sufficiently from that, a different word should be used, rather than redefining the existing one.

Otherwise it creates confusion.

As such, for the purposes of this discussion, I am defining "The Christian Church" as being the Churches following Christ that share unity of core theology and recognition of the other Christian Chruches as being Christian ALSO.

Where a church is declaring itself the "only true church" it actually needs to use a new name to differenciate it from the existing group of people.

Yet in America, this doesn't occur. Why? Did Islam call itself Christian simply because it redefined who Jesus was? Like Mormonism, Islam had a new prophet and a new revelation. The Qu'ran is like the book of Mormon in that regard. Like Smith, Muhammad made "corrections" to the bible. Like Smith, Muhammad declared parts of the bible corrupted.

Unlike Smith, Muhammad did not call his faith "true christianity" he called it "Islam".

So. We can see from your own admission that

1. Mormons do not regard themselves as the same as other christian churches, regarding them as "other religions".
2. Mormons believe they are correct and that all the other christian churches are wrong.

Which is exactly what I was saying.

So why do we have a problem again?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by LordKathen: I have exremely personal experience with Mormons. I witness what can be done to someone on the negetive side of religion. This is the problem I have with LDS specificaly.

As have I. As do I.

You arrogantly seperate Mormons from all other Christians. I have not done this. I have talked to people from other religions and it is the same law driven "rot" as you say.

I am from another religion, and it is very different from Mormonism.

The belief that I am saved through Jesus grace, and not earned through any works I do is a fundamental difference between myself and a Mormon that manifests many behavioural and lifestyle differences.

Grace provides liberty from religious law. Grace provides freedom from guilt or redemptive, atoning, or perfection attaining actions. Grace says I am loved and accepted by God AS I AM. Grace says there is nothing more I need do, to make God love me more, nor have him welcome me into his kingdom, other than to accept the gift he's offered everyone. Grace says that I am equal to the holiest monk, the wisest prophet, the least sinful apostle. All are equal under grace. There are no levels for holier, wiser, more dedicated Christians.

It's all about love. "We love him because he first loved us."

I love my God with a passion and gratitude no words can express. So I express it in song, in spirit. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. Core of being love.

Love is my prime motivator, not desire for self improvement or rewards, or fear of retribution.

Your arrogance on these manners is astounding and not productive for a healthy debate. You seem to have all this knowledge about all the different faiths and beliefs and religions. I have a hard time believing you have experienced it all and know all.

Why does a difficulty in believing I can have accumulated such experience make that experience automatically devalidated?

I am a self taught vocalist, guitarist, piano player, drummer, pro tools engineer, music programmer, producer, college lecturer, bass player, string arranger, vocal arranger, and live/recording sound engineer. Self taught. Never got a music degree, never got a teaching degree.

Yet I have taught at music colleges, and worked on over 32 albums, plus countless other projects, advertisments and shows and songs with varying degrees of critical and financial success.

I've gained the experiences necessary to make an entire album of music without needing another human.

To some this would seem unbelievable. To the person who has not experienced what I have it may seem far fetched. Yet you can listen to all the work I've done for yourself. Proof.

I have a similar bent for matters of religion and faith. I retain what I read. I have a photographic memory. I enjoy, pursue, discover, assess the myriad beliefs of humanity. I enjoy comparing the wisdom of other faiths to that of my own. Consequently I am that assured that my path is correct, I have been devoting my life to it. I am in New York, living the faith. Growing the church. Devoting my music skills to increasing a body of people, a community of people devoted to God, to each other and to helping each other through this life.

If I was a baseball nut that was able to recall batting averages of b-grade players from 50 years ago, would the unlikeliness of knowing automatically make such knowledge unlikely?

What if I was an astrologer who had spent their life looking at the stars? Would their ability to name every star you can see in the night sky be called into question simply because you can't do that?

Interest, application, focus, retention, assessment.

It is not arrogance, but a question of knowing, because I made it my business to know. I wanted at an early age to be sure I was on the right path. Why is that so unbelievable? I checked out other paths. The result has been a greater conviction that I am on the most correct, most beneficial path, that leads to knowing and loving the Creator.

[ 10-29-2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]