IW going down on Dec 3-5th - Need Donations to cover IW bills

[Bungleau]

For reference, folks, you do not have to have a full PayPal account to use PayPal. You can just charge it to your credit card instead of your bank account, and away it will go. I've done this fairly frequently, and both PayPal and your credit card company will support you against any fraud that you may encounter.

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by Bungleau: For reference, folks, you do not have to have a full PayPal account to use PayPal. You can just charge it to your credit card instead of your bank account, and away it will go. I've done this fairly frequently, and both PayPal and your credit card company will support you against any fraud that you may encounter.

That is right. It is easier than one might think, and very safe.

[ 12-01-2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]

[LennonCook]

Originally posted by Maelakin: Look at the situation realistically. If you created a membership program that charged $4.00 per YEAR, all expenses would be paid assuming less than 10% of the community decided to take part. Is that really asking too much from people? Leave General Discussion as an open post forum. Change all the others to view only unless a member.

For many people it would be quite impossible to pay this. I, for one, am controlled almost completely by my parents - parents who will not pay money over the Internet, or to someone overseas who they have not dealt with face-to-face. Well, not unless it suits *them* to do so.
Also, leaving GD open and making all others to only members can post could quite easily, and very probably, simply make GD a place where anyone can ask about the problems they are having with a game. Also, there are numerous people who have since IW started made one or two posts and then left - and many others who have intended to do just that and have become longstanding members. But those people would be likely be unwilling to pay a full year's subscription when they do not know that it will be worth it, and when they do not think that they will be here for more than a week let alone a full year.

Ziroc, I'll try to send some money via snailmail as soon as (read: if) I can scrounge enough to pay for the postage... I can almost guarantee it won't be there in time, though...

[ 12-02-2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]

[Maelakin]

I'm not sure I really follow you Lennon.

If someone can view all the information the site contains, the only reason to become a member is so that you may post in the other areas. Obviously, GD would have to be moderated so that it did not become over-crowded with gaming questions; however, maybe some people will actually start using the search function to find answers. Most of the time the answers are already there anyways, people are just too lazy to look.

As for the subscription, paying a quarterly fee of $1.00 isn’t something that will turn away most people. If you don’t like being a member after 3 months, don’t put up another dollar.

As for parents and money…it is $4.00 per year. At worst, you mail in your payment using a cashier’s check or money order (Which can be found at any bank).

Basically, it all comes down to one thing. If Ziroc is going to shut down the site, would you rather he does so or institutes a pay program?

[Memnoch]

Your suggestion is appreciated Maelakin...but from what I know of Z I'd be guessing that making areas of this site members-only would be a no-goer. I think he'd rather shut it all down that do that. This site started as a hobby for him, and has grown to the point where it is now an expense. But I'm not sure that he's looking at this site to try and make a buck for himself - it was never intended as a capitalist enterprise, but as a hobby on the side.

On the other hand, you are correct in that the bills need to be paid, and a way to do this on a consistent basis needs to be worked out, with none of the uncertainty that's happening now, while ideally still largely being able to cater to the needs of everyone here, irrespective of their capacity to pay (ideally ).

Sounds like a tough equation? You bet it is. Not sure if it will be possible to satisfy all that criteria in the long run. It would be logical to go through all the options to see which are viable and workable and in keeping with the culture for this community, and which are not. But you're right, the flip side is that we don't have a forum at all. I can't speak for Z, as it's his decision at the end of the day as he owns the place so this is just my opinion, not his - but I'm thinking that we may eventually need to accept some compromises, such as having the forum up 75% of the time, just as an example. Or maybe people pay to receive added benefits (though I want to make it quite clear that this will NOT include members-only areas). Or we manage it on a philanthropic basis, but add some rigour to payments so we get some sort of future projected cash flow to offset against site costs. Maybe some things that might have been unpalatable before can be reviewed considering the flipside, as you say. I don't know, I'm just speaking from the top of my head here.

But thanks for your feedback, it's always useful and always appreciated. [img]smile.gif[/img] By the way, just a general comment to everyone as from experience I can see where this thread might head - I'd like to try and avoid losing our focus and turning this into a generalcapitalism vs socialism debate if at all possible. Anyone who wants to do that is more than welcome to do so on the Current Events Discussion forum. If it's specifically related to the topic at hand, it's welcome on this thread. Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 12-02-2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Timber Loftis]

Topic has been addressed before at length. I still support a voluntary pay option for members who want to contribute periodically. I think enough folks would sign up at $1/mo. voluntarily to help Z a lot (meaning: I think 200 or more of our membership would be willing to do it). I think he mentioned he's working on this.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Your suggestion is appreciated Maelakin...but from what I know of Z I'd be guessing that making areas of this site members-only would be a no-goer. I think he'd rather shut it all down that do that. This site started as a hobby for him, and has grown to the point where it is now an expense. But I'm not sure that he's looking at this site to try and make a buck for himself - it was never intended as a capitalist enterprise, but as a hobby on the side.

I sent a PM to Ziroc last week suggesting much the same scenario that Maelakin mentioned....ie, making IronWorks a pay site - but only charging a very small annual fee (I suggested $5 instead of $4). That is hardly a capitalist enterprise...it is just a method to ensure that the bills will be covered every month from here on out.

I have followed all the previous discussion regarding this issue and I fully understand Ziroc's opposition to making IW a members only site. But as I pointed out, IW already has become a "pay site"...it's just that the payments are voluntary right now instead of mandatory. I know this started as a hobby for Ziroc and I understand he wants to maintain the integrity of that original atmosphere, but by his own admission, he has poured countless hours into this "hobby"...and it would be a shame to see so much hard work go for naught in the end.

There have been other popular websites that started out being free, but ended up having to charge a fee after experiencing the same kind of explosive popularity that IronWorks has seen (GameBanshee and Ranchoweb are just two examples). Neither of these sights suffered greatly (to the best of my knowledge) from the necessity of having to charge a nominal fee to cover their operating costs.

Even though I spend most of my time in the General Discussion and Current Events forums, I would especially hate to see all of the invaluable information found in the various gaming forums lost forever. I can honostly say there are several encounters in BG2 alone that I would never have gotten through without coming to IW for help. In fact, there are several encounters I would never even have had if not for the info found here at IronWorks (can you say "Weimer Mods" boys and girls? ). IronWorks is easily one of the best moderated and friendliest forum on the entire internet, and it is an absolutely invaluable source of gaming information for newbies and veterans alike.

I am glad to see that this issue is being brought out for open discussion among all the members. I am also glad to that the idea of added benefits for paying members is at least being considered as an option. I honostly don't want to see us lose ANY members over having to pay a fee - but I also feel that a fee of only $4-$5 dollars for an entire year would be well within the grasp of most members. You can earn that by mowing one yard - and still have money left over. Still, if it is decided to keep Ironworksa non "members only" site, then I think it is only fair to offer a few extra benefits to those that can and do help support the site and keep it available for everybody to enjoy.

I know many members are opposed to paying a fee for various reasons and I understand that. But as Memnoch pointed out, it is beginning to approach a point where the alternative will be that IronWorks will no longer be available for ANYBODY. And I really don't think any of the members want that to occur.

As for myself, I don't donate on a regular basis for a couple of reasons. First of all, since all donations are voluntary, I feel like I need to give at least $10-$25 dollars to help cover the costs. But with 3 small boys and a whole new set of medical bills, I simply cannot afford to pay that every month. But I also feel that anything less is just a drop in the bucket that isn't going to have any tangible effect. But I could easily afford to pay $5 per year and certainly would pay that in a heartbeat to keep Ironworks up and running - as long as I knew that enough of the other members would be making the same donation to ensure that the operating costs would be covered for the year. The only completely fair "fee based" system would be to have ALL members pay a fee and make IW a "Members Only" site. But since we really don't need every single member to donate $4-$5 dollars to cover the costs, I beleive that extra benefits for those that do contribute would be a fair concession...and I would also fully support that idea.

[Cloudbringer]

Cerek, I'm going to disagree with you.

I know that I stopped going to Game Banshee when it became a pay site. Why? As was mentioned earlier by LennonCook, I went there when I needed to find specific game related information so it wasn't worth it to me to pay a fee for a site I might not use enough to make it worth my while. I never got into forums there but if it hadn't gone pay, who knows, I might have.

If that same scenario was in place when I joined IW, I would most likely have never discovered the forums at all! I lurked AFTER finding info on games. I suspect that is the case for a lot of our members and if they had to pay before accessing the site, I wonder how many would actually do so?

Also, keep in mind that many of the people on IW are not working for various reasons, including the fact that many are teenagers and live in cultures where they don't work or don't make much money at their ages. Paying for access might mean they have to leave IW altogether

I do agree, we need to find a solution and as Mems said, it's not going to be easy and probably not going to be agreeable to everyone but the alternative is not to have our beloved IW anymore.

Banners on main page is one option and others have been mentioned, including a regular (voluntary) way of making contributions, which I think Z was going to check into. Some people indicated that if they had regular deductions on a monthly basis it would be easier than sporadic larger donations.

[RevRuby]

$5 may be a drop int he bucket, but nathan and have decided that if his hours at staples stay up we will be sending a m.o. for exactly that.

one problem for us with a pay site is we both have different log-in's and we both participate regularly in different areas. we would have to pay double a year, and yeh $8 or $10 doesn't sound like much a year, but when it came time to sign back up we may be broke and may just drop it al together. right now every month we pick and choose which bill to short change and which to ignore til next month. that is our only way to go right now.

besides many of our users are overseas as compared to ziroc and very young. most parents of young ppl do not really want them interacting with older ppl especially on the net, i don't think they would pay.

i support the idea of voluntary memberships with or without recognition for them. i personally don't care if nathan or i got recognized for donating. and i don't care if someone else wants to looks pecial for it, as long as they don't throw an "i'm better than you" attitude in my face they are not going to bother me.

anyway....it is jmho and i don't think it is so bad to hear every month "we need help!" this is our place, hosted by z of course, and we should take part in supporting it. it's kinda like a party, the host can't always predict how many will show up and if there are more than he can afford to entertain someone needs to make up for it to keep the party fun. that is our duty as iw'ers. *this is not an invitation for johnny or loa to donate alcohol to ziroc*

[Firestormalpha]

The only major problem with banner ads is that the members here will have to actually click on them. I've made it a habit of completely ignoring banner ads, and it's gonna be a difficult habit to break, though I'd do it in a heart beat to keep this site up and running.

Same goes for a monthly, quarterly, or yearly fee. I'd be willing to pay that, but I also know that there are many younger than me who, for reasons of their own, will not be able to much as they would like to.