An Open Letter from Michael Moore to George "I'm a War President!" Bush

[John D Harris]

TL, Chewie the font size doesn't bother me, in fact I aplaud Chewie for being able to decifier and do the html stuff [img]smile.gif[/img] some thing this ole coot hasn't done
TL it does a man good to be parrided...er...parryiodeded....er...parinoided..."Hale" have his style made fun of

[Barry the Sprout]

I agree he should come out and say it, but the man is only human (proving that appearances can be deceptive [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). I've only been to America once in the time that I would consider myself a Communist but boy did I get some stick for coming out and saying it. Its nothing to do with Americans as people, theres nothing inherent to Americans that hates Communism, its just that its so rare and people know so little about it.

What I'm trying to say is that I can understand why he wouldn't come out and say it as it can get pretty lonely sometimes. I get enough barely disguised hatred here in the UK, where its much more accepted, to make me really quite depressed at times.

[Oblivion437]

I don't know, quite a few people I know who hate Socialist systems to death are either veterans of it or at least know a lot about it. Meanwhile, as one of the latter once told me, "I have often found that the loudest cheerleaders for a socialist system are those who have never lived under one."

[Barry the Sprout]

Okay, lets not have this argument. Its late, and I'm tired and liable to get snappy. But suffice to say that you tell me the "socialist" state where these friends of yours come from and I'll tell you why its not socialist at all. There hasn't been a socialist state yet, or at least not one that I would recognise.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I don't know, quite a few people I know who hate Socialist systems to death are either veterans of it or at least know a lot about it. Meanwhile, as one of the latter once told me, "I have often found that the loudest cheerleaders for a socialist system are those who have never lived under one."

However, Oblivion, nothing you say here disproves Barry's point that "outing" yourself as a Commie will make you a public target. Your reply post addrsses the merits of communism but not the merits of the statement that communists are often treated with disrespect or prejudice. In fact, your post just may support that argument very well.

Barry, you're not usually one to mince words, yet you're playing loose and fast with "communism" and "socialism." Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the HAVE been socialist states, but not communist ones. In my mind, socialism is the broad range of "government ownership" of property sliding between pure governmental ownership (communism) and no governmental ownership (pure capitalism). I realize this definition is a bit broader than most people like (because it points out that the current US governmental system is partially socialistic), but still, aren't there countries -- in Europe even -- that are validly considered "socialist?"

[Oblivion437]

I'm just explaining why so many Americans might be sour about it. I knew a Russian fellow who particularly found disdain in the idea of socialist economics. He's going to become a real-estate hustler now, and I suspect the ambitious fellow is going to make a lot of money.

I have lived under a capitalist system, and I know from history what's there if we distill it from the current system. I happen to be one of its loudest cheerleaders among the people I talk to. I live in New York though. A number of quasi-communist thinkers here.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

I'm more of a socialist than a democrat. But I don't advertise the fact. I say Socialist and people immediately think of Russia during the Cold War, when in reality I think Canada's democratic socialism works just fine.

[Barry the Sprout]

Good point Timber, I should stress I was using socialist in the Marxist sense - as in a state where revolution has taken place yet the political society has not yet been dissolved and property relations are still decided through workers organisations. As opposed to the popular view of socialism which is, as you state, completely different.

[Link]

I find your statement quite bold, John D. You tell us the following:

If you don't have the stones to come out and say what you are, you deserve nearly zero respect

But have you explained yourself to the outer world? Told everyone who 'you are'? Can you actually tell anyone who you really are and what you stand for. There are lots of countries and places in the world where it's quite lethal or at least dangerous to tell who you are and what you support, America being one of them

It's not that I find it necessary to defend Michael Moore, John D; I'm not a big fan of him or something (though I found his book "Stupid White Men" amusing (up to a point where all the facts and figures became more annoying) and I can tell I haven't seen "Bowling for Columbine" yet, though I definitely intend to see it someday) so that's not it. I just think your generalisation of 'people who don't tell the truth about who they are and what they stand for' is uncalled for, because I doubt that everyone in the world is that optimistic/goodhearted he or she will tell the world about his or her intentions and ideas.

Just my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Link: I find your statement quite bold, John D. You tell us the following: quote: If you don't have the stones to come out and say what you are, you deserve nearly zero respect

But have you explained yourself to the outer world? Told everyone who 'you are'? Can you actually tell anyone who you really are and what you stand for. There are lots of countries and places in the world where it's quite lethal or at least dangerous to tell who you are and what you support, America being one of them

It's not that I find it necessary to defend Michael Moore, John D; I'm not a big fan of him or something (though I found his book "Stupid White Men" amusing (up to a point where all the facts and figures became more annoying) and I can tell I haven't seen "Bowling for Columbine" yet, though I definitely intend to see it someday) so that's not it. I just think your generalisation of 'people who don't tell the truth about who they are and what they stand for' is uncalled for, because I doubt that everyone in the world is that optimistic/goodhearted he or she will tell the world about his or her intentions and ideas.

Just my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Link, Thanks it is a bold statement [img]smile.gif[/img] I've on many occasions writen here on the forum and in real life come straight out and said who and what I am. I have no fear of others approval or disapproval, this is my life not theirs and I will answer for my thoughts and actions. I'll state it again for anyone who has not read it before: I'm a Christain, Southern conservative, Knuckledraging, Hairychested, Gun tote'n, Man, that is a sinner and falls short of the glory of God. I'm the nicest, kindest most polite, hard case SOB you'll ever meet in your life, I call'em like I see see'em, bow to no man (my wife is the execption)
Stand up for what I believe in, and believe what I stand up for. Take it or leave it I don't care. I've discovered anyone who can be impressed by trying to impress them is not worth the effect, if they can't ever see through the BS of somebody trying to impress them, I'll probibly be their boss or competition in a few years anyways I respect honesty, deplore hypocrisy, will come out and say when I'm wrong or made a mistake if I see it, to do otherwise is assinine. We're all going to die anyways, not a thing we can do about that, from what I can tell only 2 of us have ever gotten out of here alive, and I doubt I'll be the 3rd. I've faced my emminnate(sp?) death on more then one occassion, stood the test, and don't fear it. I'll try not to hasten it, but won't deny the inevitablity of it.