Newspaper article (by me!)

[Magness]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryanamur:

I'm glad that we can agree . However, I don't think that the Muslims (living in the Middle East) need to grow up and make their way into the XXIst Century. I believe that every civilization will evolve at its own pace and that if we try to force others to evolve, we will only face a brick wall that might just fall appart on us... and that would be very bad for us! Ironically, that's what we are doing (trying to force them to evolve!) and it blew up in our faces

I don't believe that our system or our way of life would be good for all civilizations. Yet, I certainly don't think that the Middle East way of live is for me. If they are happy, let them be!

I also don't believe that a democracy is appropriate for all culture or civilization. I'm really reluctant to force my set of cultural beliefs and values on others!

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While I agree that democracy may not be for everyone, those who chose to live in a non-democratic setting had damned well better get used to the fact that we like living in one and we prefer countries that do as well. Hence, if they (the Arabs) want to continue living in non-democratic setting, then they'd better get used to the FACT that we will ALWAYS favor a democratic Israel over Arab tyranies. Maybe we shouldn't be forcing our beliefs on them, but the reverse is ALSO true.

I also agree with you that civilizations evolve, not change overnight. (Sometimes, I think liberals conveniently forget that statement when it comes to change within the USA.)

But the reason that I said that I think the Arab world needs to grow up was not strictly to say that they need to become liberal democratic societies. Rather, the world is rapidly become a very small place and if the Arab world want to interact with the Western world, they need to be more accepting, a little more open-minded.

If they hate Western culture so very much, then perhaps the should do a post WW2 communist China and cut all ties to the rest of the world. Oooops. No oil revenue. Whether they like it or not, a vast portion of the Arab world's economy is based on oil production and sales to the West. We are their customer. I tend to think that they cannot economically survive without us. (And the reverse is probably also true.)

I'm not really certain where I'm going with this reply, other than to say. I think that I was correct in the first place, The Arab world does need to grow up. I'm not saying that they need to be like us. But they need to be more tolerant of us. We are completely tolerant of their monarchies and dictatorships, so long as they don't impact our vital interests. We haven't tried to boot out the Saudi monarchy, even if we might think that a democracy would be better. We only attacked Iraq after they threatened a vital Western interest. We haven't attacked Iran, regardless of how much they seem to hate us. They haven't attacked any vital Western interests.

I suppose the most simple way to say this is "Don't bug us and we won't bug you."

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
But I would ask if the Taliban needed removing this badly, why didn’t we do it earlier? I might almost go so far as to say that we shouldn’t have put them in power.

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Barry this has been pointed out here numerous times, and has been widely discussed in the media:

"We" didn't put them in power. You are confusing them perhaps with the Mujahedin that fought against the Soviets - including Bin Laden.

The Taliban were a group of religious students from the hills who rose to power during the incessant civil warring long after the Soviets left.

[Yorick]

Didn't mean to be a stick in the mud.

Good on you for writing the article.

I suppose you know that once you join and use the media you're as subject to criticisms of bias and agenda as the next writer. Much harsher than anything I'll ever dish out. I didn't mean to be overly critical, but once stuff is published, it's very hard (and expensive) to take it back, so making sure facts are correct is imperative.

Have a good day Barry.

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Magness:



But the reason that I said that I think the Arab world needs to grow up was not strictly to say that they need to become liberal democratic societies. Rather, the world is rapidly become a very small place and if the Arab world want to interact with the Western world, they need to be more accepting, a little more open-minded.

If they hate Western culture so very much, then perhaps the should do a post WW2 communist China and cut all ties to the rest of the world. Oooops. No oil revenue. Whether they like it or not, a vast portion of the Arab world's economy is based on oil production and sales to the West. We are their customer. I tend to think that they cannot economically survive without us. (And the reverse is probably also true.)

I'm not really certain where I'm going with this reply, other than to say. I think that I was correct in the first place, The Arab world does need to grow up. I'm not saying that they need to be like us. But they need to be more tolerant of us. We are completely tolerant of their monarchies and dictatorships, so long as they don't impact our vital interests. We haven't tried to boot out the Saudi monarchy, even if we might think that a democracy would be better. We only attacked Iraq after they threatened a vital Western interest. We haven't attacked Iran, regardless of how much they seem to hate us. They haven't attacked any vital Western interests.

I suppose the most simple way to say this is "Don't bug us and we won't bug you."

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Very good points, now, lets reverse the situation and apply it to us! They don't want us to become totalitarian, they don't want to force their beliefs upon us, they are attacked when they act in a way that is detrimental to our interest... so tell me, who's forcing who?

Now, what do you think would happen if they decided to cut ties with the West? The West would go in, just like we did in Iraq, to "fix" the problem from our perspective. The reality of it is that the vast majority of Arabs living in the Middle East don't get anything from the oil revenues, they go straight into the hands of the princes and rulers. Take the oil revenues out and it won't affect the majority of the population.

The Arab world doesn't need to grow up, it's the World (including us) who needs to grow up and learn to interact!

[norompanlasolas]

QUOTE from Magness. -- Just to "prove" (for whatever its worth to you) that I did listen in class, I remember that it was believed that the first communist revolution would occur in a European industialized country or the USA first, rather than the agrarian Imperial Russia. I also remember that Lenin, while hardly an angel, seemed to be a relatively decent enough sort, as revolutionary leaders go (also seen thru the lens of looking back many decades into the past). Having said that, I still believe that the philosophy that he was supporting was still evil.
Cuba is an evil repressive communist dictatorship and, once Castro is pushing up daisies, Cuba will be the better for it. --


This is what I fail to understand from the reasoning of some north americans (another thing that I dont understand is why they insist on calling themselves americans, as if there are no more countries in the entire continent).

Mixing politics with religion only complicates matters, and thats EXACTLY what makes bush as dangerous (or maybe even more) as bin laden. Saying a regime is evil is just oversimplifying and putting things in black and white. Especially in the case of cuba. Most of the cuban problems are due to the US embargo promoted by the corrupt cuban-americans that live in miami (bush's little brother jeb, by the way, made his personal fortune doing shady bussines with them).

That is why president bush scares me so. A not very bright, ultra-religious and wrightwing fanatic in the presidency of the one superpower that can throw an atomic bomb and walk free is a REALLY scary thought.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
This is what I fail to understand from the reasoning of some north americans (another thing that I dont understand is why they insist on calling themselves americans, as if there are no more countries in the entire continent).

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We don't insist on calling ourselves Americans anymore than you might insist on calling yourself European. Either is accurate, but doesn't mean any one nation is the sole inhabitant of a continent.

That's not the thinking at all, it's just shorter than saying a United States American. America is part of the name of our country. I guess we could call ourselves USers [img]smile.gif[/img] I'd also point out that it isn't just US citizens who refer to ourselves as Americans, but the world refers to US as Americans as a generalization.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
Mixing politics with religion only complicates matters, and thats EXACTLY what makes bush as dangerous (or maybe even more) as bin laden. Saying a regime is evil is just oversimplifying and putting things in black and white.

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Bush hasn't claimed the religious "high ground" on this issue. Everything possible has been done to keep religion out of the conflict. Terming something "evil" doesn't invoke religion.

Sometimes things are black and white, and sometimes people want too much grey.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
...president bush scares me so. A not very bright, ultra-religious and wrightwing fanatic in the presidency of the one superpower that can throw an atomic bomb and walk free is a REALLY scary thought.

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This is certainly an oversimplification.

All black and white, here

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


This is certainly an oversimplification.

All black and white, here

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yep, you got me. it seems oversimplification is like a virus these days. I usually pick up lots of them anyways. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
QUOTE from Magness.
This is what I fail to understand from the reasoning of some north americans (another thing that I dont understand is why they insist on calling themselves americans, as if there are no more countries in the entire continent).

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What the ??!?!?. I don't call myself an American, I call myself Canadian! As far as I know, only Americans (people who live in the US or have dual US citizenship) call themselves American! People who live in Mexico (the only other country in North American) call themselves Mexicans [img]smile.gif[/img]