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Old 10-09-2002, 03:29 AM   #31
pcgiant
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Dude, techniques like that are not either cheese or cheating!

They are masterfully designed tactics which are not exploiting any bugs in the game or editing files. It is possible to roleplay with using these tactics.
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Old 10-09-2002, 04:33 AM   #32
White Lancer
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Quote:
Originally posted by pcgiant:
Dude, techniques like that are not either cheese or cheating!

They are masterfully designed tactics which are not exploiting any bugs in the game or editing files. It is possible to roleplay with using these tactics.
They are cheese, even that site states that they are cheese. You cannot normally have 4 pprojected images, but by using cheese! you can. Cheating is bad, anyone who is cheating should be hung, drawn and quatered (ok, not that bad, but hey, i HATE cheaters) but cheese is OK. Using contingency in battle is cheese, as that spell was not intended for use dring battle.
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Old 10-09-2002, 04:48 AM   #33
pcgiant
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Who says Contingency shouldn't be used in battle? If that was the truth they could make it like the
ToB Ability Spoiler
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Pocket Plane ability which can't be used in battle.
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Old 10-09-2002, 04:53 AM   #34
Zuvio
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Quote:
Using contingency in battle is cheese, as that spell was not intended for use dring battle.
Why is that? Its a perfectly usefull spell for during battle. Battle wouldnt be fun without it. Too slow then.

BTW: just finished the Temple sewers (not Unseeying Eye) with my 11th lvl solo conjurer. Those muggers had to chase me all the way through the sewers and I skull trapped, webbed/spiderspawned, sunfired, MM'ed my ass off, and it *still* took three tries to get it right. The second time I slayed all of them but was poisoned by a (suddenly appeared?) green slime. What a way to make a living.

[ 10-09-2002, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Zuvio ]
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Old 10-09-2002, 07:03 PM   #35
SixOfSpades
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
[RANT]
Truth be told, I feel insulted that we are being compared to the Trappers. We do NOT abuse the AI, we just devise ways to bring out the full potential of our spells in such a way that it augments our Mages/Sorcerers' power.

We do NOT cheat, so that comment about the killsw01 is uncalled for and slanderous. You also know me to a certain extent, SixOfSpades, and you know I DESPISE cheating.[/RANT]
Don't worry, Dundee, it's just a misunderstanding. I am NOT comparing powerful Archmagi to those who kill Dragons by Cloudkilling them from Offscreen. To slaughter your opponents wholesale is all part and parcel of being a Wizard. Casting Wish during a Time Stop, or having your Projected Image fire spells into your Spell Trap, etc., are all perfectly valid, high-level tactics to enforce your iron dominion, and are not meant to be confused with laying a stack of traps on Shangalar's spawn point, or hacking yourself the Crom Faeyr in Chapter 1....or exploiting the computer's weak AI. I would never compare valid techniques to the killsw01, Dundee, and I confess that I feel a little bit slandered, myself, that you would think I was slandering you, something that I would never do. After all, you da man.

With that said, though, the line of what is and what is not "cheesy" about Wizard spells becomes very blurry. One cannot tell for certain exactly what BioWare had in mind when they implemented those spells; That they intended Wizards to be able to gain a huge boost to their spellcasting power through Project Image goes without saying, but did they really intend players to be able to have FOUR active Project Images running simultaneously, each equipped with the gear of the actual character? I don't think so. So, sure, it's a perfectly legitimate use of the spell system, but when an army of DemonKnights doesn't stand a chance against you, you really have to stop and ask yourself if it's really fair. As I said, the line where the cheese begins is very blurry indeed.

Quote:
In conclusion, I can only say that it is your loss if you do not wish to understand the nuts and bolts of magic in this game, as it will enable you to fully appreciate the extend of what you can do. You can still complete it, but never reach your full potential.
Actually, Zuvio IS learning the nuts and bolts--the basic and intermediate combinations of spells that enable him to kick ass as a Solo Mage. What he is not doing yet is learning the universal joints and intake manifolds--the more advanced techniques that open the door to a whole new realm of whoopass. He'll get to that part later. As you said, Dundee,

Quote:
One can still roleplay and be a powerful spellcaster. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Zuvio is, infact, doing it the roleplayer way: By learning it. What he is consciously avoiding is the powergamer way: By going right to the walkthroughs and cheese guides, and wanting to be able to throw CC-bombs while still in Irenicus's Dungeon. True roleplayers will discover/develop the advanced spell techniques of their own accord, not from some guide whose writer didn't give a damn about game integrity.

Gee, maybe *I* should have added a [RANT] tag, too! [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-09-2002, 07:18 PM   #36
White Lancer
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So, if using contingencies in battle isn't cheese, then what is it? Sure, you CAN use it in battle, but does that mean that Bioware wanted it to be used like that? Maybe, but i doubt it, else why make the game so you can only cast one spell per round?

I guess different people define cheese differently.

[ 10-09-2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: White Lancer ]
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Old 10-09-2002, 10:50 PM   #37
Dundee Slaytern
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A misunderstanding I see. It was not clear in the previous post that you were not comparing us to the Trappers( or the... CKers... ...).

Your mention of learning tactics on your own reminded me that I learned the Mislead Exploit, Melf's Minute Meteors' Exploit, RATI/PRATI Tactic, and several other miscellanous spell tactics on my own. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I hestitate to claim that I am the first to think of these tactics, as I do not have concrete evidence.

However, I was under the impression that Zuvio wanted to know everything, and not just the basic tenets of spellcasting, which led me to point him to the spell guide( a very good one too, I must say), especially since he is soloing.

Heh, heh... but I am wary of sharing some of my tactics now too. I am not sure how to explain it, but sometimes a guy got to have some secrets too.

[ 10-09-2002, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:46 AM   #38
TaSSaDaR
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Join Date: August 27, 2002
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IMHO, BioWare overrated spellcasters veery much. Project Image spell is the key.
ToB spoiler
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Now hitting the drow enclave I experience no problem at all (hit XP cap in SoA) Dundee's PRAI tactics grew to my own SPRAIP/S tactics, which stands for Staff of the Magi, Project Image, Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, Improved Alacrity, Planetar/Sceleton Warrior. Whenever I encounter an enemy I go invis, PI, IA, then just summon all the Planetars and Sceleton Warriors I have available, then either provide support (ADHWs) or kill the PI with its own Flame Arrows. So, after a 1/2 of a round I have an unbeatable army of Planetars supported by Sceleton Warriors. No enemy stood a chance against all them. I understand that its a cheese (PI ignores summon limit) but no cheating at all. And guys at BioWare definitely knew what they were bringing into life by devising that PI.

Along with all these I roleplay. And I learn new tactics every battle I go through. Still didn't bother to use CC in advanced way, but its near future for me.

What I am trying to say is that solo spellcasters, by the end of even SoA, are nearly godlike in power. Without cheats. And its a pity that BioWare didn't care for gaming balance - fighters have almost no chance.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:39 AM   #39
White Lancer
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Tassadar, are you soloing a mage or a sorcerer?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
Your mention of learning tactics on your own reminded me that I learned the Mislead Exploit, Melf's Minute Meteors' Exploit, RATI/PRATI Tactic, and several other miscellanous spell tactics on my own. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Just what Melf's minute meteors exploit was that? I dont remember hearing anything about this one...

[ 10-10-2002, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: White Lancer ]
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:48 PM   #40
SixOfSpades
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Join Date: September 16, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
A misunderstanding I see. It was not clear in the previous post that you were not comparing us to the Trappers( or the... CKers... ...).
That's odd. I didn't think I was vague on that point.... (reads back over the thread again) Oh, I see. You were mentally blending by quote of what Zuvio said (which described how insanely powerful Wizards get) with what *I* said (which involved cheesy Trap techniques and the killsw01). I understand--that's easy to do, as you were answering 2 or 3 topics all in the same post. I've made that same mistake myself. No big deal.

Quote:
Your mention of learning tactics on your own reminded me that I learned the Mislead Exploit, Melf's Minute Meteors' Exploit, RATI/PRATI Tactic, and several other miscellanous spell tactics on my own. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I hestitate to claim that I am the first to think of these tactics, as I do not have concrete evidence.
Just wanted to add that I came up with the Project Image / Spell Trap combo on my own, as well, and not only that, but it was during the months that my computer was down and the only place I could play BG was in my head. (Of course, then I saw the exact same strategy listed in the Spell Reference, but at least I did come up with the idea.) [img]smile.gif[/img]
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