One question to atheists II (does that mean it's two questions now??)

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: (If and) when words scribbled down thousands of years ago by PEOPLE from oral tradition and *ostensibly* the direct "words" of a diety make someone ignore such clearly understood things as carbon dating and fossil evidence (note: I am only referring to the fossil evidence we do actually understand) then it is time for me to quit reading a thread that has become meaningless. [edit]: sorry Yoric - now that I saw your later post, I don't think this is what you were doing, but at the time I did. [end edit] Yorick is offended by the notion we come from Chimps or something similar, just as he is arrogant in placing humans on a pedastal. Mayhap these internal feelings of superiority and need for a purpose are shared by the majority of people. Mayhap this feeling, and many others shared by conscious reasoning being who fully comprehend mortality is why those people have a *need* to create gods to worship. God created man. And man, being the perfect gentleman, returned the favor. - Inherit the Wind

Timber, you haven't yet responded to my earlier words to you.

I am not offended by such a notion. I simply cannot accept it from the evidence I see and have seen. Yes I am amazed at how marvelous humans are, and that extends to seeing how marvellous I am, and how wonderful my God is. My faith INCREASES MY SELF ESTEEM AND MY LOVE AND ADMIRATION FOR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS.

You may call it arrogant. I call it enhanced appreciation of human life. An increase in love of self and love of others.

Hardly a destructive tendancy.

It has nothing to do with the way I treat animals either. I love animals and they me. I'm almost a vegetarian, and support animals rights by choosing where my dollar goes by buying free range eggs for example.

But yes, believing that we are created seperately from the animal kingdom does increase my value of human life.

But then we disagree about the value of human life in a number of areas don't we Timber.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Call me a cynic, but I need to see facts, not guesswork, assumptions and speculations before changing a position.

You gotta be kidding me! You believe the bible yet doubt other things not grounded in hard facts?[/QUOTE]The truth in the Bible is reaffirmed in my life daily. In my life and experience it IS a hard fact. It works. It's advice and values work for me. The promises get fulfilled in my life. Because it works and holds truth in the areas I can see clearly, then until proven otherwise I take it's word on other matters, such as origin of the species.

Speculations about skulls is hardly "hard fact". Sorry. I simply cannot accept it.

[ 01-23-2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Yorick: A rats DNA is also very similar to a humans. That is meaninless. We are also similar to trees in that we're alive and we grow. It doesn't mean we must have come from a shared ancestor to a tree.

Nah, isn't it interesting that the closest to us living things look, the more genes they share with us ? We share 99.5 % of our genes with Chimpanzees, and 70 % with bananas. Were it the other way around, I would be the first to agree with you that it is (probably) meaningless.

Showing a photo of a skull that bears little resemblence to a humans does little in my book either. It is an old skull of a creature with a huge mouth and small brain. Hardly proof of evolution.

Of course, you would have to look at ALL the skulls and skeletons on our evolutional tree as scientists have constructed so far for the continuity of our evolution to seem more plausible. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Co-operative behaviour is not the exclusive domain of chimps and humans. Hyenas, dolphins, lions, ants and many other animals work co-operatively. Again, not conclusive proof.

Chimpanzees have exhibited much more than simple cooperative behaviour - they live in societies with cultures - they CARE for each others (refer to the story about the cripple I mentioned earlier). And dolphins are known to be extremely intelligent too.

Again I repeat. Using a rock or simple tool is like reinvention of the wheel. Humans alone use compounded knowledge and invention. We communicate our discoveries and inventions to each other and build upon that. The result is an engine driven car, not simply another wheel. Human inventiveness, consrtuction and artistic expression far outsurpasses any other lifeforms, in terms of complexity, scope, permanence and communicative significance.

So we humans seem to be the only species that ACTS on its environment to suit it, instead of dancing with it. So far, anyway : we have been able to modify the world on large scales using mechanical tools for only 2 centuries, and on the world scale for 50 years, which is VERY short in view of humanity history.

The question I ask is : do we have the collective wisdom matching our technological prowesses ?

We don't have the knowledge to say for sure if the chimpanzees and dolphins don't follow our path because they can't or because they don't need/want to. I don't see why their own evolutionary paths should follow ours. You are measuring apples and oranges - measuring foreign species with human scales.

Also, humans collectively and individually have adapted to every environment on the planet. Apes have not.

LOL I recently watched a documentary about a kind of mouse who has managed to travel at some point in the past to a surprising amount of locations all over the world, and managed to adapt to survive everywhere it went. I'll try to find the name of that Survivor Mouse for you. That is hardly a human specialty ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well that's where we disagree Claude. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ah ... I agree. [img]smile.gif[/img]

For the sake of humour, Yorick Bard, may I say that that skull up there looks a lot more human to me than an egg bouncing on two orange legs ?

Oh, and I see you are all talking about 'chimps'. Are we 'hums' then ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT : Damn spelling mishaps !

[ 01-23-2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

[Timber Loftis]

[quote]Originally posted by Yorick:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: [qb]Timber, you haven't yet responded to my earlier words to you. ***** You may call it arrogant. I call it enhanced appreciation of human life. An increase in love of self and love of others. **** It has nothing to do with the way I treat animals either. I love animals and they me. I'm almost a vegetarian, and support animals rights by choosing where my dollar goes by buying free range eggs for example. **** But then we disagree about the value of human life in a number of areas don't we Timber.

1. Which earlier words? Not in this thread, right? The original thread? Or the other thread on this board? Sorry - lemme know and I'll get to typing straight away.

2. Yeah, I only eat free range eggs too. And I'm a vegetarian. And so is my wife. And our kids will be too. But, gawd, how could one ever give up CHEEEESE? Sorry, just a plug for cheese. But not all diary, milk is poison.

3. Yes, we do disagree about the value of human life. I value the species-being but not so much the individual. I'm concerned with the teleological story of human existence (and an astute philosopher might ask how one ascribes to teleology without ascribing to theology). But, I'd push a button to kill 50% of the people on the planet just to cure the population problem if I ever had the chance.

But, as for the value of human life: the law certainly puts a value on it. I know when I get a death case on my desk it's worth about $1mil. But, the worst cases are the ones where the guy/girl is really badly injured but doesn't die. A lifetime of mental retardation from a motorcycle accident (like one I've got right now) throws you easily into the $5 mil range. So, aren't determinations about the value of human life made every day? BTW, Cheney's golden severence from Haliburton pays him more per year than either one of these figures, just so you can relate.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Chimpanzees have exhibited much more than simple cooperative behaviour - they live in societies with cultures - they CARE for each others (refer to the story about the cripple I mentioned earlier). And dolphins are known to be extremely intelligent too.

Claude, I have to run, but I'll quickly just add in this.

Ants. Bees. Whales. Hyenas. These all have societies with cultures too. Doesn't mean they're humanlike.

Anyway I'm out. Talk to you later you Sage de Francais.

[esquire]

OK speaking as true Atheist now ….

I am proud to be a human, a species that has against all odds survived and evolved over millions of years…ultimately achieving the state we are in now. From my perspective, my 4+ years of university training I accept that science is real.

I should mention that my major is English, so I have also studied the bible quite a bit, its an ok book… kind of rambles on in places.

If one takes a religious standpoint that say, humans are separate from the rest of the animals on earth, such a statement cannot be supported by facts, only faith.

Science on the other hand starts with a theory and then seeks to prove it by use of the scientific process. Needless to say, if the scientific process didn’t work, then I wouldn’t even be typing on my laptop right now [img]smile.gif[/img]

--------

Additionally I personally do not see a correlation in understanding how our evolutionary history occured is in any way demeaning to what we are now.

How does understanding our origins demean what we are now??? Why would this be?

Hell, we beat the odds! We survived the astroid that wiped out the dinosaurs; we beat out the Neanderthals, and not to mention the countless plagues and wars... ect...

Yea, Human life is valuable.

[ 01-23-2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: esquire ]

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Moiraine: *snip* Nah, isn't it interesting that the closest to us living things look, the more genes they share with us ? We share 99.5 % of our genes with Chimpanzees, and 70 % with bananas. Were it the other way around, I would be the first to agree with you that it is (probably) meaningless. *snip*

But science is constantly changing it's position on this:

Source Insertions and Deletions in the Human Family Tree The DNA sequences of humans and chimpanzees may not be as closely related as once believed. Divergence in DNA sequence can act as a measuring stick for the evolutionary relatedness of species. For decades, scientists estimated that 98.5% of human and chimpanzee DNA is the same, based upon the temperatures at which similar DNA strands from the two species break apart from each other. Roy Britten from the California Institute of Technology revisited the question of sequence divergence by directly analyzing about 735,000 DNA bases from both human and chimpanzee genome sequences. His results show that the number of single base substitutions, replacing one DNA base with another, was 1.4%, in agreement with previous estimates. However, the old estimates did not include insertion or deletion events (indels), where one or more DNA base is lost or inserted into a stretch of DNA. Although indels occur about 10 times less frequently than single base substitutions, indels typically involve many more bases. Adding indels to the single base changes yields a new estimate of 95% DNA sequence identity between humans and chimpanzees. Further genome sequencing, and the fact that indels can serve as useful molecular markers to distinguish between closely related species, should allow scientists to resolve disputes regarding which primate species is most closely related to humans.

I don't understand everthing in here (I chacked out the full article) but it says to me that there is still a long way to go before we know how close human and various animal DNA really is. We seem to be even further from understanding fully what that relationship then means.

[esquire]

Originally posted by Leonis: quote: *snip*

But science is constantly changing it's position on this:

[/QB][/QUOTE]Well actually there are a few things that we are certain of, this is one of them.

[Dagorion]

Ok, I didnt really bother reading most of the posts in this topic (mainly because I have to mow the lawn in a few minutes *shudder*) but to answer the question of how we are different from animals is easy. Gods own teachings (if you believe he exists) have told us that we have the ability to comprehend and use intelegent thaught, thus giving us the ability to recognise the existence of God. Also on a side note, we are made in gods own image in the fact that we have the capasity for love and intelegent thaught, it matters not what we look like. Some people think that "if Gods teachings told us that we were made perfect then why do we have fat bodies or those pointy teeth?" Well thats just stupid, we were made spiritually perfect because we all have the capasity to use the virtues (love, kindness, tact, the other 200 or so ones there are) that help us be better people and do what that Christian prayer says "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" (if this is written wrong im sorry) this is just what i have been told but that prayer speaks of the creation of gods kingdom on earth asin, if we keep being good people and working towards the betterment of mankind we can forfil our purpose as people of gods faiths (Jewish, Muslum, Christian, Baha'i) to bring an age of happiness and ... well, perfection to earth.
Please dont be offended by what i have said, this is just my opinion and if you feel angered by this just remember that no human is infallable and I may therefore be wrong. (breaths deaply)

*Gibberish mode: off*

[Gammit]

Originally posted by Yorick: A rats DNA is also very similar to a humans. That is meaninless. We are also similar to trees in that we're alive and we grow. It doesn't mean we must have come from a shared ancestor to a tree.

--Did you know that two people can have the same DNA and be totally different? You often need an environmental input in order to "turn on" (express) the gene. Evidence for this is overwhelming. Thus, a rat can have a genome very similar to a human, and be a totally separate species.

Showing a photo of a skull that bears little resemblence to a humans does little in my book either. It is an old skull of a creature with a huge mouth and small brain. Hardly proof of evolution.

--perhaps if you took all of the skulls at the various points of evolution, you might see more evidence (not proof). Then again, maybe not. Agree to disagree, they say.

Co-operative behaviour is not the exclusive domain of chimps and humans. Hyenas, dolphins, lions, ants and many other animals work co-operatively. Again, not conclusive proof. Again I repeat. Using a rock or simple tool is like reinvention of the wheel. Humans alone use compounded knowledge and invention. We communicate our discoveries and inventions to each other and build upon that. The result is an engine driven car, not simply another wheel.

--so we've developed a trait (more complex brains in the right areas) that allows us to thrive in this particular moment in time. Is that so great? Not when we become extinct, I think. Is that a meteor coming this way?

Human inventiveness, consrtuction and artistic expression far outsurpasses any other lifeforms, in terms of complexity, scope, permanence and communicative significance.

--I dsiagree. Much of our inventions come from observing other, less-evolved, ancestors. Then, human got together, shared ideas, and made another discovery. So we have more complex communication; lucky us. Permanence? We haven't been along that long, actually. The planet is roughly 6 billion years old. Perhaps another society (non-human) had built something far more substantial, and we haven't found it yet. A longshot, but plausible.

Also, humans collectively and individually have adapted to every environment on the planet. Apes have not.

--of course we have, by destroying nature around us. I don't believe this adds to our greatness. Perhaps dolphins don't build McDonald's because they know it would be unhealthy? Perhaps they're wiser than we are! Ok, joking here, but still...

Three questions for you. Do you believe that the human race will become extinct? What happens then?
Do you believe in things like "Crossing Over" when a person can communicate with people who have died? Sometimes these people can sense dead pets. How can this be explained?
Just curious as to another's thought-processes.

[ 01-23-2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Gammit ]