Guess we really HAD to Zman. ;) :D

Here is the old thread: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=013552;p =7

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would say : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.</font>[/QUOTE]A squirrel is not born without instincts. A squirrel doesn't have to learn everything from obsevation the way a human does.

A squirrel does not question why it is here, nor get fed up and end it's own life.

A squirrel does not create works of art that express it's inner desires, dreams and hopes.

A squirrel does not hypothesise alternate scenarios before initiating an action, like a human does.

A squirrel does not get worked up in a fit over a perceived slight from it's mate.

A squirrel does not need to "get away from it all" because it's existence has become habitual and in a rut.

A squirrel does not kill for sport.

A squirrel does not embark on a search to find: It's real parents, it's homeland, what it really wants to do in it's life, a reason to keep on living.

We are considerably differnt from squirrels. ;)

[ 01-23-2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

(Hmm.. just had to re-log in..)

Ok, guys, but keep it polite, and I totally don't mind [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks!

PS: Yorick, send me some more tunes!

I knew Miss Nomer. She wasn't that huge, in fact, petite is the word that springs to mind for me.

We have these new fangled things called light switches in New Zealand. I'm pretty sure they'll catch on ;) (Sorry. Pretty lame huh? Gimme a break it's been awhile [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

As for my beliefs... I don't believe in a higher being. I believe that if you are happy with life and not causing pain or suffering to others then you're doing it right.
I've got no problem with other people thinking something completely different; I respect their choice. What I don't like is when said people start telling me that they're right and I'm wrong. Why can't they respect my decision to not believe in God and leave it at that?

The differences are not that great though mate. THose that alter a substancial theology are generally widely renounced as in serious error. The bible the Jehovahs witnesses use is one such translation. A commitee that comprised of just one person qualified in koine greek, and self taught in Hebrew, translated theirs. There are significant trasnlation errors.

All the others agree on the central assertions of Christianity. Sometimes it can indeed help reading more than one translation to get a clearer picture, as it may word something in a slightly different way. It is after all the spirit and intent that is the important thing. The message that get's into your mind, not the exact wording. It's the "inspired word of God", not a series of magic words.

An example is this note verse 3 in all versions:

NIV:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
<font color="cyan">3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. </font>
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.

-------------------

NASB:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
<font color="cyan">3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. </font>
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [1] comprehend it.

-------------------

AMP: (this is an "amplified" translation. The meaning is elaborated on)

1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([1] Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [2] Himself.(1)
2 He was present originally with God.
<font color="cyan">3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.</font>
4 In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.
5 And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it].

--------------------

NLT:

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
<font color="cyan">3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn't make. </font>
4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.
5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

--------------------

King James:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
<font color="cyan">3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.</font>
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--------------------

And so on. The exact wording may differ, but the message is the same.

[ 01-23-2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

O.k. (and thanks Dan) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Humans are not born without instincts either... and squirrels (or anything else for that matter) are not born totally knowledgeable about everything life can throw at them... They have to learn too... they just have more instincts than us...
How do you know it doesn't... there are probably hunderds of cases world wide where squirrles place a sharp acorn below a tree, climb the tree and then impale themselves...
Sure they do... you know when they bury nuts? It's actually a contemporary art form expressing the desire, dream, and hope, for NUTS!
Sure they do... a lot of strategy is involved in chasing your muckers around a tree... left - right - left - left again...
Why do you think so many squirrles are seen alone gathering nuts... its a sorry present...
See notes on last point...
What about those hoards of nuts... they don't eat most of them... so technically they could be killing for sport... just imagine "The Big Nut Competition - pluck, collect and bury as many nuts as possible, and win a fabulous prize... NUTS!!"
How do you know that migration isn't exactly that (nb... ok... so squirrels don't migrate... but other animals then... and squirrles often go from tree to tree searching for something!

OK... so maybe not... (although the first one was serious ;) )

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would say : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.</font>[/QUOTE]A squirrel is not born without instincts. A squirrel doesn't have to learn everything from obsevation the way a human does.

A squirrel does not question why it is here, nor get fed up and end it's own life.

A squirrel does not create works of art that express it's inner desires, dreams and hopes.

A squirrel does not hypothesise alternate scenarios before initiating an action, like a human does.

A squirrel does not get worked up in a fit over a perceived slight from it's mate.

A squirrel does not need to "get away from it all" because it's existence has become habitual and in a rut.

A squirrel does not kill for sport.

A squirrel does not embark on a search to find: It's real parents, it's homeland, what it really wants to do in it's life, a reason to keep on living.

We are considerably differnt from squirrels. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Squirrels don't do these things, but chimpanzees do. [img]smile.gif[/img]

For centuries, scientists have wondered what exactly makes us humans different from animals.

For a long time, the answer seemed to be : Only humans use tools. Heh no. Lots of animals are able to get a nearby rock or branch and use it to help themselves to, say, loot an anthill. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Then it was said, sure, but only humans are able to MAKE tools. Nope. Evolved apes like Chimpanzees and Gorillas are able to combine stuff, for example make a longer branch from two smaller branches tied up to get better results from the said anthill. [img]smile.gif[/img]

OK, but only humans are able to consciously PLAN. Sorry, again no. A community of Chimpanzees has been observed sending a group 10 km away to a special place when the right sort of rocks could be found to use as tools. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I can go on : Only humans laugh ? Nope, Chimpanzees do. Only humans create ? No, scientific projects observing Chimpanzees have provided them with paper and pencils, and some apes made drawings. [img]smile.gif[/img]

All these abilities seem to derive from self-consciousness. Are you able to distinguish yourself from any other member of the same race ? Humans do - and again, Chimpanzees do, experiences with mirrors have proven that. So far, it seems that only humans and chimpanzees possess self-consciousness.

Other troubling (and IMO exciting) facts.

When you give access to a big mirror to a group of Chimpanzees, after a while they are able to know that it is themselves they are seeing, and observe others from the mirror - and after another while they take great fun painting their face and looking at their reflection and laughing ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Chimpanzees are able to learn and use deaf language to communicate - and they are able to express abstraction, like "I am sad because Mum is ill". [img]smile.gif[/img]

A young Chimpanzee was raised with a human family. A group of other Chimpanzees lived nearby. When asked, from a set of photos, which ones were of Chimpanzees and which ones were of Humans, she answered correctly for all the photos but one : she put herself in the Humans group ... [img]smile.gif[/img]

In a Chimpanzee community, there was one who had a brain disease, making him unable to 'grow up', he was physically adult but behaved like a child. The other Chimpanzees cared for him and sheltered him as a human community would for a fellow crippled human (or some may say better ...). Once he went to the leader and undertook the 'challenge' stance - the leader started to take an aggressive stance, then saw it was the cripple and immediately went back to calm and ignored him. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And my favourite anecdote : Two scientists locked a Chimpanzee in a room with various pieces of furniture, to observe his behaviour. So they locked the door and one of them put his eye on the peephole ... to face a huge brown eye looking him back ! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Chimpanzees are self-conscious. Chimpanzees have very complex societies. Chimpanzees think and plan. Chimpanzees learn. Chimpanzees create. Chimpanzees laugh. Chimpanzees have feelings. Chimpanzees care for each other.

Chimpanzees don't make war. Chimpanzees don't seek growth at all costs. Chimpanzees leave the world intact.

Are the Chimpanzees wiser than we are ? More 'human' ?

Are they our future ?

Is there a place in Heaven for Chimpanzees ? ;)

Hehe reading what you wrote reminded me of one of the Primatology classes I took at university: Anthropology was my minor [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yea, they definitely have a "culture" of sorts. They do pass knowledge down from generation to generation.

[ 01-23-2003, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: esquire ]

BTW here is a cool site on Chimp Culture

So what's the question ? :D