Language and foreign culture

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I agree with most of what you said, MagiK. And, I do hope our schools aren't quite as wacky these days as your post indicates - though I don't have personal knowledge. I do think kids are more knowledgable at younger ages than I and my peers were at the same age - but, that's to be expected and I would be upset if it weren't the case. Where we disagree is that I do think foreign languages should be taught at younger ages here - which they *never* have been. Kids learn languages better at younger ages. Plus, foreign language class is where you learn something about other cultures - right?

Actually I agree and know that kids are supposedly more adaptable at learnign languages than older people, [img]smile.gif[/img] And is why later once we get the schools fixed and operating properly then reintroduce alternative languages..Im just trying to suggest a more focused education than my kidss were getting before I put them into private school, now they are back in a public school, and it is fairly decent but it is a rural PA school and not a "multiculturally aware" school like we have here in Maryland (thank god).

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I agree with most of what you said, MagiK. And, I do hope our schools aren't quite as wacky these days as your post indicates - though I don't have personal knowledge. I do think kids are more knowledgable at younger ages than I and my peers were at the same age - but, that's to be expected and I would be upset if it weren't the case. Where we disagree is that I do think foreign languages should be taught at younger ages here - which they *never* have been. Kids learn languages better at younger ages. Plus, foreign language class is where you learn something about other cultures - right?

Actually I agree and know that kids are supposedly more adaptable at learnign languages than older people, [img]smile.gif[/img] And is why later once we get the schools fixed and operating properly then reintroduce alternative languages..Im just trying to suggest a more focused education than my kidss were getting before I put them into private school, now they are back in a public school, and it is fairly decent but it is a rural PA school and not a "multiculturally aware" school like we have here in Maryland (thank god).

EDIT: as an example of what I am against. Kids are not given letter grades or even a numerical equivalent in the schools in my county, they are given pass/fail but no one fails due to the harm that would be done to a childs psyche if they were not to do as well as some other student. Theya re also not allowed to keep score on any intramural games they play. (no winners no loosers) I am totally disgusted with the public school systems here in MD.[/QUOTE]

[ 11-04-2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Wow, that would have been a treat. Most of my freedom of movement and TV-privileges in my youth were directly proportional to the number of "A's" I got on report cards. Pass/Fail systems are not for kids. They can work okay in higher education, but only in limited circumstances, IMO. Berekely law school, a great school, uses P/F and most students dislike it. I think P/F systems breed mediocrity. My college roommate, a hardcore economist, pointed out to me once that if I got better than a C- on a P/F exam I had misallocated my resources.

Edit - whoopsee, we're [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] once again.

[ 11-04-2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Charean]

Magik, if that is the way the school system in MD is now... I am totally disgusted. I grew up in Montgomery County and at one time it was among the best in the country. And we learned the basics as well as foreign language. We had Political Science, Earth Science and Drama and Band and Choir. We also had top notch English - where we learned about Shakespeare, not how to pass a test, Algebra, Geometry, and even had Consumer Math (highly underrated in my opinion. That is how I learned about insurance, interest loans and other nifty things).

Why the cirriculum has changed so idiotically is beyond me. School should help you prepare for work, but also how to learn so you can go out and learn on your own. Bloody shame that now it is more about passing Standardized Testing than about learning skills. Here is TX it is a serious bone of contention.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

I think if people are going to move here then they should speak the language that the majority of people speak. I speak pretty good spanish , but I dont speak it at work even though I work with 10 guys who barely speak english. If they cant follow my directions and do the job right when I give them instructions in english that is their problem. We have people comeing in there for jobs that cant speak a work of english and they fill out job applications in spanglish. IMNSHO if you can understand the application enough to put the right answers down in spanish , then you should learn enough english to put the right answers down in english.

[Djinn Raffo]

Just to offer a clarification here for MagiK...

The English speaking Canadians, which i am one of, do not have so much of a large problem with the French speaking ones and the seperation of Quebec from Canada is a French issue which was brought up and determined by the French themselves.

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Just to offer a clarification here for MagiK... The English speaking Canadians, which i am one of, do not have so much of a large problem with the French speaking ones and the seperation of Quebec from Canada is a French issue which was brought up and determined by the French themselves.

Ah, well that is good to know, but I have heard that the French debate on seperation caused quite a consternation amongs the non-french Canadians, but I don't know how wide spread. It was after all only a conversation held while consuming mass quantities of alcoholic beverages and playing euchre. I think that was the night I was made an honorary Canuk

[Djinn Raffo]

Right on Euchre! Fun stuff...

Yes i am sure that it did cause some consternation with a good many english speakers, i live on Vancouver Island.. some three or four or five thousand kilometers away and so am fairly detached. You are closer to Quebec than i am but i have visited the province many times.. And their are still many issues which pizz off the english speakers i am sure. The french language police and their nitpicking. I had heard of a sign on a door in english in Quebec that said 'Enter'. The shop keeper was given a fine for not having the french equivalent up there as well. I've read many articles about similar events.

[Spelca]

Originally posted by AliCat: If I immigrated to another country, I would learn that country's language in less than a year, for my own safety as well as courtesy. My German ancestors certainly all had to do so. Yes, my job is made difficult. But I think it is ridiculous for various states or the country to contemplate making another language our secondary language, as first of all, we have waves of immigration from a variety of countries and should we just change the second language every fifty years or so, and second, why the heck should we make it easier on people who are too lazy to learn English? And yes, that's what I think we're doing, if people in this country can spend their entire lives not needing to learn any English.

I don't think it's possible for all people to learn a language in a year. And that doesn't make them lazy. I don't know what the situation is over there, but I moved to Sweden about a year ago so I'll just talk from my experience.
Here they have special Swedish courses for foreigners with a residential visa, and it's all free, so I went there after I moved. Andy yes, I managed to 'learn' the language quite well in a year, but I had an advantage from other people in my class. As first I am fresh out of uni (though not finished yet ) where I studied English. So I had knowledge in grammar, and learning a language was not strange to me. And I also had more time to learn... Most of other people had families, so they had to go to work to support them. Then there's also the factor that they were all about 20 years older than me, which meant that it was a long time since they were last in school, and that they also forgot lots of things. I don't know how many of 'older' Swedes know what a noun or a verb is, but I bet not all of them, so it's not strange they didn't know either. I don't even know how many of them went to highschool... Most of them also came from Iraq and Iran, so when they came here they didn't even know the alphabet. And then there's also the whole cultural difference which made it even harder on them... I moved from Slovenia so the differences were tiny and I didn't have problems adjusting. Then it's also harder for them to learn Swedish, since lots of them live in the same neighbourhoods and they don't have as much contact with Swedes. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I don't think it's fair calling people lazy because they can't learn a language as quickly. Though I don't think you meant those who can't learn it in a couple of years, but those that have been living there for decades. But anyway, maybe these people don't have to learn English because they can get by by speaking their mother tongue? Or maybe they can't learn the language because there's no course where they would get help, or because they don't have much contact with people that do speak English.

(Sorry if this post doesn't make much sense.) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Edit - typos.]

[ 11-04-2002, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

[AliCat]

WillowIX: I think the reason a lot of Americans have strong accents in other languages is because of the quality of the foreign language teachers in the public school systems, especially those inland (away from the coasts). I believe that the best language teacher should preferably have three qualities: she should be a native speaker, she should be a natural teacher, and preferably, she should also have some education in both the teaching process and in teaching that language. I had one French teacher in junior high who even I could tell had a strongly American accent to her French, and while you could learn vocabulary and grammar from her, actual speech was poor. My best teacher ever was Madame Sena, in high school (Madison H.S., Madison, NJ), who was born in France, but also lived in the U.S. enough to have Queens/Brooklyn-accented English. However, her French accent and enunciation was fantastic, and she taught both language and culture with a flair that made you want to keep learning beyond high school. That said, I think in South Dakota, for instance, you are going to find far fewer native-French teachers, much less be able to find one for each high school or middle school.

Spelca: I don't think it's entirely unfair, either, to call someone lazy for not being able to at least learn some English (or whatever language) in a year, at least enough to get by in an emergency situation. The majority of radio, television, written media, and so forth is in English (although it's rather easy for an immigrant to have not only a TV but also cable and thereby watch Univision or Galavision, which are Spanish-speaking only, and again avoid the need to think in another language). There are plenty of classes in English, and I believe most towns have such at the high schools or community centers, after hours. But yes, many do get by speaking their mother tongues, thanks to governmental efforts to put the census, the tax forms, and many other forms in the most popular immigrant languages, thanks to the above-mentioned cable channels, and thanks to the inevitable shopkeepers who spring up in immigrant communities. I lived in "Spanish Harlem" in New York City for two years; in many of the stores, 80% of the overhead announcements were in Spanish. At times, finding English speakers was tougher than finding Spanish speakers. That kind of community will spring up with any influx of immigrants, but will still end up building up a lot of tension and resentment if the immigrants do not make a token effort of adjusting to their new country by learning the language.