"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Maelakin: pritchke, I agree about politics and religion being alike. I would go so far as to argue that religious institutions ARE nothing more than a group of politicians.

Well of course. Religions are filled with PEOPLE.

Put TWO people in a room and you have politics. Add a third and you have REALLY INTERESTING politics.

Indicates human nature, nothing more, nothing less.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Maelakin: Seeing as how there are many Christians on this board, I’ll direct this question to them (it can also be applied in various other ways to all religions. The Bible is a book that is left open to interpretation. 1.Have you read it for yourself, and in doing so, have you formed your own foundation for your beliefs? Or, 2. do you blindly accept the interpretation a religious institution has formed without questioning?

1.Absolutely. Of course. The strong Christians I know read it regularly. Some of us have rollickingly good debates about certain issues too. My own biblical interpretation of hell differs from the Catholic/Protestant interpretation for example. Where some see hell as a place of eternal seperation from God, manifested in some sort of tormented regret filled existence, I see hell as being a state of non-existence. This is an interpretation that varies even from my own Pastors interpretation. No mind control whatsoever.

2.Obviously not. That would be part of the definition of a "cult", not the contemporary Christian Church.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: [b] WOW!!! HOWEVER Timber provides a good counter-example regarding my sig. There are many non-Christians here at IW that may well find my sig offensive in some manner. So if I want to keep my sig as is, then it is only fair that I allow Maelekin the same right to keep his. Even though I may disagree with what he says, I don't have to become angry over it. I can always choose NOT to become angry. That's one thing many people don't take into account nowadays. NOBODY can MAKE you get angry over something. You make the choice yourself to become angry about anything.

Thank you very much for stating the obvious, Cerek - and that's the kind of attitude we encourage here. I would have thought it an obvious statement - but many of us forget it from time to time, and it's good to be reminded now and then.

[Maelakin]

I find it disappointing when a statement is misinterpreted, and following your correction of the interpretation; people are still using it in the context that you already stated was inaccurate. This is one of the biggest drawbacks to communicating over a written medium that allows people to interject without following the entire discussion.

Yoric, I have to disagree with you on two points!!

1. Maelakin IS evil. Or, maybe I just need to find a way to remove these horns…
2. I tried, but I couldn’t get the damn rock to New York. I’m just not strong enough =(

Anyways, returning to the topic at hand.

Pertaining to Cerek’s signature being used as a counter-point in the discussion, Timber was exactly right in bringing it up. Originally Yorick stated that he found my signature offensive and that I should use discretion. The point here being that OTHERS may find signatures offensive based upon the same principles of discretion and as such, it should have also been pointed out by Yorick that their signatures, while not offensive to Yorick, should be removed based upon the fact that some others may find them offensive.

In other words, it was the principle of calling out an individual for something that has been accepted in the past.

Those who answered the questions I posed, you obviously shouldn’t have been offended by what was posted in the signature. As stated before I was implying that religious institutions were the target of my statement, not religious people. Understand this:

Religious people are NOT religion.

A person’s faith is NOT religion.

A person’s religious philosophy is NOT religion.

In conclusion, I’ll be honest here. I think Yorick was offended because he chose to be offended. No more, no less. In truth, many of the times we find ourselves offended it only takes but a moment to realize we alone are upsetting ourselves.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Maelakin: I find it disappointing when a statement is misinterpreted, and following your correction of the interpretation; people are still using it in the context that you already stated was inaccurate. This is one of the biggest drawbacks to communicating over a written medium that allows people to interject without following the entire discussion. Yoric, I have to disagree with you on two points!! 1. Maelakin IS evil. Or, maybe I just need to find a way to remove these horns… 2. I tried, but I couldn’t get the damn rock to New York. I’m just not strong enough =( Anyways, returning to the topic at hand. Pertaining to Cerek’s signature being used as a counter-point in the discussion, Timber was exactly right in bringing it up. Originally Yorick stated that he found my signature offensive and that I should use discretion. The point here being that OTHERS may find signatures offensive based upon the same principles of discretion and as such, it should have also been pointed out by Yorick that their signatures, while not offensive to Yorick, should be removed based upon the fact that some others may find them offensive. In other words, it was the principle of calling out an individual for something that has been accepted in the past. Those who answered the questions I posed, you obviously shouldn’t have been offended by what was posted in the signature. As stated before I was implying that religious institutions were the target of my statement, not religious people. Understand this: Religious people are NOT religion. A person’s faith is NOT religion. A person’s religious philosophy is NOT religion. In conclusion, I’ll be honest here. I think Yorick was offended because he chose to be offended. No more, no less. In truth, many of the times we find ourselves offended it only takes but a moment to realize we alone are upsetting ourselves.

If religious people are not religion, would religion exist if people did not? All an organised religion is, is a collection of people choosing to adhere to relatively similar beliefs and actions.

As to Cereks sig, the hypocrisy would have been if HE asked you to remove your sig. Howvever, I did. I, as I've noticed, have no spiritual references in my sig. Truth to tell, I actually find Cereks sig a little uncomfortable and would understand if people got annoyed. It's a sig I wouldn't choose to display. But I love Cerek. He is stating a POSITIVE about his own faith, not deriding anothers belief. It was the derisive aspect I took umbrage with in your case.

Anyhow, this is a dead horse. It's gone. I thankyou for your consideration. I'm glad we've discussed it though, for I've seen so many rude and insulting sigs in my time, it's not funny. Kind of like the straw that broke the camels back if you will. I'm not perfect and was choosing to be annoyed and pissed off with every post you wrote, because that insult was at the bottom of each message. I appreciate you making an allowance for my weakness in that regard. Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Maelakin: Seeing as how there are many Christians on this board, I’ll direct this question to them (it can also be applied in various other ways to all religions. The Bible is a book that is left open to interpretation. 1.Have you read it for yourself, and in doing so, have you formed your own foundation for your beliefs? Or, 2. do you blindly accept the interpretation a religious institution has formed without questioning?

1.Absolutely. Of course. The strong Christians I know read it regularly. Some of us have rollickingly good debates about certain issues too. My own biblical interpretation of hell differs from the Catholic/Protestant interpretation for example. Where some see hell as a place of eternal seperation from God, manifested in some sort of tormented regret filled existence, I see hell as being a state of non-existence. This is an interpretation that varies even from my own Pastors interpretation. No mind control whatsoever.

2.Obviously not. That would be part of the definition of a "cult", not the contemporary Christian Church. [/QUOTE]HOwevere, there are churches, like the one I grew up in, where the pastor answers a young inquisitive mind with "Do not question God. To do so is blasphemy." [/QUOTE]Firstly, questioning God and questioning the pastor are two different things.

Secondly, plenty of Biblical guys questioned God. Or wrestled with him in prayer. Jonah ran away. Jacob wrestled. Abraham pleaded for Sodom. The disciples asked questions of Jesus. Thomas "the doubter", even though he was chided, got what he asked for, and then was the first guy to proclaim Jesus as God. The list goes on and on.

In any case, some girl gave me a cop-out response similar to that early on in my faith. It's simply indicative of an immature Christian theology. Unless you heard wrong?

More proof? Billy Graham asks questions of God he doesn't know answers too, as per his speech re. 9/11. Most of us do. It's part of faith. Some answers get revealed over time, others don't. All part of the journey.

Does that diminish love? Do you have to know everything about a person to love them?

What male can totally understand the mind of the woman he loves?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: But, my point is a valid one: some religions preach non-questioning. That, in my mind, is a problem. First, it is a theoretical dilemma created: if god is *right* he would of course invite questioning, for such questioning would lead to revalation of his truth. But, there is also the damage done to the religion's self-interest: a refusal to allow questioning did a lot to deter me from religion, for the only religion I knew at the time offered no answers but only the advice to SHUT UP.

Unfortunately, Timber, this is far too common among some groups. While it has never happened to me personally, I've heard several other people say that was the attitude in the church they went to as a child. Not surprisingly, several of these people had become atheists and left the church althogether - due in large part to that type of attitude.

You are right, also, in stating that God shouldn't mind people questioning His Word and His Revelations if He really is the Omnipotent Being Christians claim He is. Of course, God isn't the one objecting to being questioned, the preacher or Sunday School teacher, or whoever is the one getting upset. And if they give you the "Just be quiet and don't ask questions" response...chances are it's because you've asked a question THEY can't answer.

I understand that feeling. When I first began debating theology with my good friend Burner, I found myself getting very defensive. That's because he has read the Bible just as thoroughly (actually probably more thoroughly) than I have and he has found several areas that he says simply can't be true or couldn't have happened the way the Bible says it did. So then the ball is in my court to explain that or to provide a Christian perspective to other questions he has regarding God and his Omnipotent and Benevolent nature. But I also found that his questions forced me to read my Bible more carefully, and pay much more attention to the details, instead of just skipping over them. As I grew in my knowledge, I felt less and less "threatened" by his questions. Many times, he still didn't accept my answer as legitimate or as "proof" the Bible was right, but at least I took a shot at it and gave him the best answer I could. Then it was up to him to decide if he agreed or not.

Anyway, the same holds true for many Christians. They don't know their Bible as well as they should and when somebody comes along that asks very tough and challenging questions, it's much easier to tell them to be quiet rather than admit that they can't give a good answer.

The bottom line is that God most assuredly is NOT threatened by anyone challenging His Word or even challenging His Existence. He created us with inquisitive minds and gave us the drive and curiousity to seek answers to "unanswerable" questions, knowing full well that would lead many to question His very existence.

[Faceman]

One of my teachers in high school once told us that: "You can see if a smart person is also wise if his answer sometimes is: 'I don't know'"
Sadly many people rush to defensive behaviour when this small statements would be most accurate and not in the slightest diminish their worth.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Chewie! You forgot the quote most pertaining to this thread!! "Religion is the opiate of the masses." - Karl (Groucho ) Marx

Steady on!
Don't go offending the Marxists on the IW boards or you'll be the first one with your back against the wall when the revolution comes! [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]
Now, do you want a cigarette with that blindfold?

[Maelakin]

Can I have two smokes? After all, they will be my last!