East vs West - more fuel to the fire

[Kaz]

Good one! *applauds*
Now, can someone define "left wing" and "right wing"? I think there's a bit of confusion here - or maybe I'm the one confused.
Wait a sec, dinner! Be back in bout half an hour or so.

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Kazara

Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB
Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe
Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG)
Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati
Lux omnis est

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Kaz: Good one! *applauds* Now, can someone define "left wing" and "right wing"? I think there's a bit of confusion here - or maybe I'm the one confused. Wait a sec, dinner! Be back in bout half an hour or so.

Not really a definition but more a visualization

Left wing: tends towards social liberty, help to the people that suffer, freedom, civil rights, etc... (socialism, true communism (marxism)...)

Right wing: primacy of power, military action, sets aside human rights, primacy of self interests, etc... (military dictarorship, nazis, fachists,...


So, here's an exemple: "7,000 innocent Americans died because of terrorist attack. Those attack against the US were totally unwaranted and America will stand strong." (left because of innocent, totally unwaranted)

"7,000 American died in terrorist attack" (neutral... centered, just the fact)

America to use military power to kill Bin Ladden in responce of terrorist attack that killed 7,000 in NYC. (right because it supports military action and to kill Bin Ladden)

Of course, those exemples are fictitious but they do point out the difference between the Left and Right

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Kaz: Good one! *applauds* Now, can someone define "left wing" and "right wing"? I think there's a bit of confusion here - or maybe I'm the one confused. Wait a sec, dinner! Be back in bout half an hour or so.

You can look at it in terms of state owned vs. privately owned - state being left (taken to its extreme, that's communism vs. capitalism, but that is taking it to the extreme... You get left wing and right wing within capitalism.) Left wing is more in favour of services being government run/regulated, (essential services, anyway) where as right wing would have them run as privately owned enterprise to make profit (well, profit in theory. Who profits is debatable. Oops, may just have betrayed my own bias there....

Another way of looking at it is: right wing - radical and reactionary, conservative, traditional. Left wing - advocating liberal reform and change, potentially revolutionary (that's more the far left), often leaning towards favouring government intervention to accomplish aims.

Ugh. That's not that clear. Oh well, someone else will probably explain it better. Got the below off the net. Gives a bit of history and clarifies it a bit.

'Among the most ill-defined phrases in English are the phrases "right wing" and
"left wing", in reference to political philosophy. The origin derives from the British parliament building. If you stand in front of the British parliament building, facing the door, the House of Commons is to your left, and the House of Lords is to your right.

When they built the U. S. Congress building, they put the House of Representatives, the lower house, to the left, and the Senate, the upper house, to the right. Therefore, in the 19th Century, left-wing came to mean poor, and right-wing came to mean rich. Then the phrases left-wing and right-wing came to refer to the sort of legislation or rhetoric that would be going on in that side of the building. For instance, in the left wing of the British
parliament building, the House of Commons, people would be pushing to increase the percentage of the population that could vote, and other reforms. In the right wing of the parliament building, the House of Lords, people were pushing to prevent reforms, and maintain the status quo. Thus left-wing came to mean wanting change, and right-wing came to mean not wanting change.

This is the main definition used today. The more left wing you are, the more change you want. The more right wing you are, the less change you want. Of course, the extreme right wing is reactionary and wants to go back to the way things were in the past, which itself is change. Therefore both the left wing and the extreme right wing want change, but they want very different kinds of change. Once you get into differentiating between different kinds of change, it becomes extremely complicated. You could say that the left wing wants change and to progress, and the extreme right wing wants change and to regress. However, the extreme right wing doesn't consider it regression. Suffice it to say that basically, the left wing wants change and the right wing
doesn't want change.

(I would say the above was written by a left winger... )




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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: You can look at it in terms of state owned vs. privately owned - state being left (taken to its extreme, that's communism vs. capitalism, but that is taking it to the extreme... You get left wing and right wing within capitalism.) Left wing is more in favour of services being government run/regulated, (essential services, anyway) where as right wing would have them run as privately owned enterprise to make profit (well, profit in theory. Who profits is debatable. Oops, may just have betrayed my own bias there.... Another way of looking at it is: right wing - radical and reactionary, conservative, traditional. Left wing - advocating liberal reform and change, potentially revolutionary (that's more the far left), often leaning towards favouring government intervention to accomplish aims. Ugh. That's not that clear. Oh well, someone else will probably explain it better. Got the below off the net. Gives a bit of history and clarifies it a bit.

No, both make perfect sense (to me anyway) . Between the 2 of us we should be able to point out Left and Right in terms that other will understand

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[AngelofDeath]

Left wing - Liberal mind set.

Right Wing - Conservative


Consequently, Great Definition, Silver Cheetah.

The left wing:
Want to control the money I make, tell me where to put it, how to spend it.

We should help everybody, keep people on welfare, and not give them incentive to get off it and work for a living. And hell, why should they, I'll give you money for each kid you have.

The Right wing:

Wants to keep there earned money to themselves, and not share it.

Help yourself, go out and get a job, I'll train you, but you need to work for yourself.


Any Questions?

Incidentally, This country is VERY Liberal......
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[This message has been edited by AngelofDeath (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by AngelofDeath: Left wing - Liberal mind set. Right Wing - Conservative Consequently, Great Definition, Silver Cheetah. The left wing: Want to control the money I make, tell me where to put it, how to spend it. We should help everybody, keep people on welfare, and not give them incentive to get off it and work for a living. And hell, why should they, I'll give you money for each kid you have. The Right wing: Wants to keep there earned money to themselves, and not share it. Help yourself, go out and get a job, I'll train you, but you need to work for yourself. Any Questions? Incidentally, This country is VERY Liberal......

Very liberal IN YOUR OPINION Angel of Death, if you don't mind.

The above post is a example of 'definition with extreme prejudice', IMHO.



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[AngelofDeath]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Very liberal IN YOUR OPINION Angel of Death, if you don't mind. The above post is a example of 'definition with extreme prejudice', IMHO.

Point taken, will you settle for just Liberal

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[Kaz]

Okay, no wonder I'm confused. This is approximately what I understand under right and left wingers:

Right wingers - Slightly right winged are conservative people (who don't want change, as SC quoted it). However, really right-winged means faschism and Nazi, racism, etc.

Left wingers - Socialists (what Europeans consider Socialist) are a bit more than slightly left winged. Ecological groups like our Green Party are more left oriented than them, extreme ecological groups like Greenpeace even farther left. However, "left" is defined by "Socialist" or "Communist" in my book. So the Antifa (anti - faschists) would be a very very far left group, the left-wing terrorists would be extremist left.
Er... not too clear. However, that is what I understand under left- and rightwinger: rightwinger: negative, leftwinger: positive when not extreme or too far left.
I think you can understand that I've been a bit confused by this discussion.

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Kazara

Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB
Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe
Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG)
Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati
Lux omnis est

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Kaz: Okay, no wonder I'm confused. This is approximately what I understand under right and left wingers: Right wingers - Slightly right winged are conservative people (who don't want change, as SC quoted it). However, really right-winged means faschism and Nazi, racism, etc. Left wingers - Socialists (what Europeans consider Socialist) are a bit more than slightly left winged. Ecological groups like our Green Party are more left oriented than them, extreme ecological groups like Greenpeace even farther left. However, "left" is defined by "Socialist" or "Communist" in my book. So the Antifa (anti - faschists) would be a very very far left group, the left-wing terrorists would be extremist left. Er... not too clear. However, that is what I understand under left- and rightwinger: rightwinger: negative, leftwinger: positive when not extreme or too far left. I think you can understand that I've been a bit confused by this discussion.

Pretty good. Except for the Right wing not wanting change. The Right want's change if the current system is to the Left (just like the Left want's change if the current system is to the Right). It's all done in relation to where you sit. So, if you're in the US and you're slightly left you're OK and there's a good balance. However, if that's not were you are, you want change. Either further to the left or further to the right.


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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: So, here's an exemple: "7,000 innocent Americans died because of terrorist attack. Those attack against the US were totally unwaranted and America will stand strong." (left because of innocent, totally unwaranted) "7,000 American died in terrorist attack" (neutral... centered, just the fact) America to use military power to kill Bin Ladden in responce of terrorist attack that killed 7,000 in NYC. (right because it supports military action and to kill Bin Ladden) Of course, those exemples are fictitious but they do point out the difference between the Left and Right

Just noticed these examples of left wing, right wing and facts unsullied by bias reporting.

Ok, Ryanmur, now I know why you think the US press is left wing.

In my opinion, the first example is no way left wing!! It's the phrase 'Totally unwarranted', really, also the 'America will stand strong' is pretty suspect. Left wing thought does not support the totally unwarranted stance. (By saying that, I am not saying that left wing thought is jumping up and down saying it's all America's own fault, either, (well, actually some of it is... but let's not get back onto that one.... )

There are a number of questions regarding the causes of terrorism, and America's part in those causes. (I'm talking in terms of factors, not America being wholly responsible - sorry, I'm ducking in advance having been pot shot at so many times that I'm getting a little leery here....) E.g. America's support for corrupt dictatorships in the Middle East, support for Israel's 34 year illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (without American funding, arms and general support they wouldn't have got nearly as far as they have... ) and so on and so forth. Of course there are many other factors (this is not an anti America comment, I just want to get some perspective in here....)

Left wing tends to look at cause and effect. Right wing tends to go rah rah rah, we're right, you're wrong.

I don't think your right wing example is particularly representative of a right wing bias in thinking, either. It's pretty much a statement of intent, without any emotive adjectives. It doesn't support anything, just makes a statement about what America plans to do. I find the first statement far more right wing, the one that you are positioning as left wing. That's the one with the emotive words and statements in it, and that is the one that betrays a strong bias by the writer/organ of publication.



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us