Good news/Bad news

[Cerek the Barbaric]

{SIDEBAR} - Dahmer was not executed, Timber, although he did receive the Death Penalty.

He died in prison before the sentence could be carried (I seem to remember that he was killed by other inmates, but I'm not sure about that).

[Attalus]

Yep, killed in the showers with a prison shank. AFAIK, the crime was never solved.

[Lanesra]

Cerek the bloke in your sig, was he guilty?

[Chewbacca]

I disagree. The Bible admonishes individuals not to kill, but does grant governments the right to take a life as punishment for a crime.

Wether or not the bible condones capital punishment is a matter of personal opinion and interpretation, in my opinion.

I wonder...Is goverment not made up of individuals? If twelve individual jurors or one individual judge sentence an innocent person to death, are they not guilty of wrongfully taking a life? I can hardly imagine how my conscience would feel in that circumstance.

I find it hard to imagine an angel of judgement at the end of life saying "It's okay you wrongfully convicted that guy and sent him to the gas chamber, you were a member of a jury, part of goverment...here is a pass."

I find the phrase "Thou shall not kill" to be very specific and not open to exception in its context. That is, of course, my interpretation of the "moral of the story".

It is circumstances like these that really reinforce my belief in reincarnation. If, at least, to give souls with good intentions a fair chance.

This seems like a case of "The best intentions lead you know where..." if you ask me. But like you said Cerek, you, me, and Ghandi are all entitled to their own opinion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Volley to you, Donut. For every case of wrongful execution you produce, I can match it with another case where a convicted criminal killed again after being released from jail. I understand your viewpoint, but I feel there IS a time and place when the Death Penalty is the only acceptable and fitting punishment. .

I think you could find many more to back up your point. But it's a completely false argument. As long as life means life the convicted 'murderer' cannot kill again. Of course if a mistake has beeen made it can be put right.

Don't forget that the executed man in my case was not a murderer!

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Lanesra: Cerek the bloke in your sig, was he guilty?

Interesting question, Lanesra.

Did he ever kill anybody? That answer is unkown. However, he would certainly be "guilty" of other sins.

As a popular bumper sticker says "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Volley to you, Donut. For every case of wrongful execution you produce, I can match it with another case where a convicted criminal killed again after being released from jail. I understand your viewpoint, but I feel there IS a time and place when the Death Penalty is the only acceptable and fitting punishment. .

I think you could find many more to back up your point. But it's a completely false argument. As long as life means life the convicted 'murderer' cannot kill again. Of course if a mistake has beeen made it can be put right.

Don't forget that the executed man in my case was not a murderer! [/QUOTE]No, Donut, it is not a "false argument". Primarily because "life imprisonment" does NOT always mean "life imprisonment". Charles Manson and his followers that heinously murdered the actress and her husband back in the 60's are granted parole hearings on a regular basis (about every 3 years or so, I believe). I watched the parole hearing for one of the "young girls" that participated in the murder not long ago. She is now a woman in her 50's and an entirely different person (or so she claims). I found it was easy to feel sympathetic towards her plight of being locked away for the rest of her life....but the family of the actress will never forget the brutality of the murder she helped commit and would consider it an absolute travesty if a parole board ever DID "give in" to sympathy and let her go.

And in the rare cases of serial killers (like Ted Bundy), it is entirely logical to expect that they WOULD kill again if they ever got out..no matter how old they were. Because their homicidal tendencies are an uncontrollable desire within them.

I only support the Death Penalty for the worst offenders and I agree with Timber and Attalus that it should only be handed down when there is overwhelming evidence of thier guilt.

The prosecutors in Alabama will be seeking the Death Penalty for Eric Robert Rudolph, because he killed a security guard and permanently disfigured a nurse. He also is accused of 3 more bombings in Atlanta resulting in another death and over a hundred injuries. So it is reasonable to assume that Rudolph would plant more bombs in the future if he had the chance (provided he is found guilty in the current cases, of course).

In another case in Texas a year or so ago, a young nurse hit a homeless man on her way home from a night out on the town with her friends. The man was impaled on the windshield, but wasn't killed. The nurse drove home and left the man on the hood of her car for THREE DAYS as he lay there moaning in pain and begging for help before FINALLY bleeding to death. Is she likely to commit such an act again, if given the chance? Very Doubtful. But the extreme negligence of her actions are inexcusable. Still, I would think a life sentence would be more appropriate for her. Let her sit in a cell for the rest of her life and think about her actions every day.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: ]No, Donut, it is not a "false argument". Primarily because "life imprisonment" does NOT always mean "life imprisonment".

I know that Cerek, that's why I used my words carefully '..as long as life means life..'

There is a case in Britain at the moment of a school caretaker who is accused of killing two young girls. On Monday, despite being on suicide watch in a top security prison designed especially for the purpose, he took an overdose. Thankfully he has recovered. Because I want to see him suffer a trial and then spend the rest of his life suffering for what he did. (Er, allegedly). As he wants to die then executing him would be carrying out his wishes.

Please don't anyone bring up the cost - money isn't everything in this world.

[ 06-12-2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

Originally posted by Donut: Please don't anyone bring up the cost - money isn't everything in this world.

And money is not always the cost.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I noticed how carefully you chose your words, Donut. FWIW, I would agree that "if life meant life", I would be agreeable to it in MORE cases - but there are still some cases where I would NOT agree to it.

Serial killers are a prime example. The only way to guarantee that they do not kill again is to eliminate them permanently. Life imprisonment is not suitable for a couple of reasons. First, these men (and women) have absolutely NO REMORSE for their actions. Making them "think about what they did for the rest of their lives" is pointless because they don't believe they did anything wrong to begin with. Secondly, they become "cult icons". Charles Manson is considered more of a celebrity than a brutal mass murderer. I cannot even imagine how the families of his victims must feel when they see him being interviewed on TV by some reporter wanting to hear "his side of the story". It disgusts me.

The same would hold true for Eric Robert Rudolph. He has some very extreme views and also shows no remorse for his actions. So there is no reason to believe he would not plant more bombs if he ever got out of prison for whatever reason. The only way to ensure he never harms another innocent person is the death penalty.

As for the nurse I mentioned above, her case is different. Her negligence and callousness is unforgivable, but she does seem to realize how terribly wrong her actions were...so it would be fitting to basically "take her life away" and force her to think about what she did for the rest of her natural life.

OH...and as far as money is concerned, Life Imprisonment is cheaper by far than the Death Penalty (due to the numerous appeals and other legal obstacles that must be overcome).