The world is pretty sucky these days

Timber...I know you and I disagree on this, but the only way to stimulate the economy is to allow people who have the ability to spend do so...by keeping more of their money. The poor do not pay taxes, they in fact collect more than they put in, so trying to help them won't stimulate anything. The people who have moeny who get to keep it, will spend it on products or grow their business. Only 50% of the people pay into the tax coffers, so those 50% are by definition the only ones who are going to benefit from stimulas pacakges. giving more of other peoples money to the lower 50% doesnt do anything for anyone since they really cannot do anything (economy wise) sigificant with it.

Prosperity lies not in increasing the welfare state but in growing the business and allowing new business to be started. You do this by lowering taxes (which by definition benefits the top 50% of all people) getting rid of capital gains taxes and other business inhibiting taxes. Welfare as a whole needs more reforms and needs to encourage people to get out and work, to improve themselves and to contribute to society and their own welfare. Education benefits are needed, and so are stricter controls on the existing welfare funds, to limit faud, waste and abuse.

To clarify my earlier statement that welfare needs to encourage people to getout and work...I do not mean that all poor people are lazy...I mean that the current welfare system as it is set up, discourages people from working by putting enalties on them for income they may earn...even if it is just barely minimum wage. We also need to quit encourageing the welfare baby factory mentality...by continuously paying single (unwed) mothers more as they produce more children we should find a way to encoutrage their restraint in having more children until they can afford to raise the kids they have. In my opinion it is morally reprehensible to have more childrent han you can provide for. In this day of modern contraception there is no ecuse for the numbers of children being born to parents who cannot take care of them.

Edit: yeah I know..Im just a big mean conservative with no compassion.

And just to cover the other topic [img]smile.gif[/img] The world being sucky is pretty much a perspective thing. At least these days the majority of people are not homeless, shelterless nor starving. All in all every person in the USA has it better now than they woould have 100 years ago. TB isn't raging, there are no massive cholera, typhoid, influenza and or pox's out there decimating the populas. Lifeis good(comparativly)...even if the news papers rag about the down side of everything.

[/)eathKiller]

._. this isn't looking good...

When bad things happen they come in packs >_> and i'm not just talking about cigarettes...

[Timber Loftis]

MagiK, only recently have I really started to see the problem in stimulating the economy. Look, in plain and simple terms that I've taken a lot more space to detail before, I'll postulate a few things:
1. I agree that the poor usually take more from the system than they put in. If assistance programs do not convince you of this, also factor in the wages and jobs to run programs like AFDC, food stamps, and (especially) deportation, child support, and other free legal service systems.
2. It is plain that the tax code is well-used by most persons of means to avoid losing much at all of their income. Even in the highest (about 50%, 40% federal, 10% state) tax bracketts in the nation, anyone making $150K+ per year can easily keep enough money invested and moving to avoid the vast majority of their tax burden.
3. However, it's the $25K - $100K families that end up absorbing the burden. Just rich enough to be in the 40% bracket (32% fed, 8% state), just poor enough to not have extra funds to keep their money tied up (i.e. not taxed). Too poor to start a business and free themselves, or looking at just scaping by and playing a tough odds game if they do bet the "family farm" and start their own business. Poor enough that insurance really hurts, but too rich to access health care programs for the poor.

It's this group, the burden-bearing group that I'd like to see better themselves. But how? The group is quite diverse - and in fact the majority in the country. Some are budding professionals, and fall on the democrat side. SOme are pulled toward the common-sense notions and "family values" diatribe that republicans have claimed as their own in recent years. How do you fix the problems for these folks.

The folks who get an SBA Loan on a hope and a prayer that they won't make a mistake and go broke. Not the Whitewater-scamming conclaves of wealthy who misuse SBA by obtaining dozens of "small business" loans and then running real estate schemes. The folks who cough up an unjust $300 a month to keep their family under a shitty HMO plan, yet still have a $500 deductible when someone gets sick. The ones who buy car insurance at high premiums because they just can't afford the risk.

It is the group no one targets in these discussions, and being in the "middle" is very much where I'm seeking to explore ideas.

Okay, [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] off.

[Timber Loftis]

Oh, and MagiK - The "you should go to work" ethic you have is great, and usually comes with a "you should pay your part" and "you should be responsible for the wrongs you comit" ethic as well. What about (see my first post) the companies running offshore??? Aren't they hurting us all MUCH worse that the blokes who would rather live a meager existence off welfare than get off their butts and go work?

Not that I disagree with what you said about welfare and the welfare state - which does encourage folks to stay on it. I'll also note, giving what little credit I can to the man, that Clinton did a LOT to reform this that we are just now seeing (as just now is when the welfare is ending for folks, taking us back to the notion it is "temporary").

But, I must say the billions taken from the tax base by offshore businesses will hurt us all - especially since Congress will find SOMEONE to take the burden - it's not like Senators are going to give up their raises they recently passed.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Oh, and MagiK - The "you should go to work" ethic you have is great, and usually comes with a "you should pay your part" and "you should be responsible for the wrongs you comit" ethic as well. What about (see my first post) the companies running offshore??? Aren't they hurting us all MUCH worse that the blokes who would rather live a meager existence off welfare than get off their butts and go work? (hope you don't mind my posting in this format) I agree with you about the off shore thing, the loopholes do need closing. But fixing those does not change the fact that "rich people" are the ones who make jobs for the not rich, giving the "not rich" a chance to earn their way into the rich catagory. Not everyone is smart or lucky enough to continually improve their lot, but it is the best we can do, it is the best system humanity has come up with so far. So in essence we both think the tax system needs fixing. Not that I disagree with what you said about welfare and the welfare state - which does encourage folks to stay on it. I'll also note, giving what little credit I can to the man, that Clinton did a LOT to reform this that we are just now seeing (as just now is when the welfare is ending for folks, taking us back to the notion it is "temporary"). But, I must say the billions taken from the tax base by offshore businesses will hurt us all - especially since Congress will find SOMEONE to take the burden - it's not like Senators are going to give up their raises they recently passed. Can't disagree with you there at all. So you think that NAFTA is the cause of much of this? Im not sure, haven't really followed the world of high finance. I have been kind of busy bringing myself up from the $6 an hour job I started with after the military service to where I am now..never thought to look at how the big corps are evading the system.

Thought I would add, that after getting to know Colleen, I have started being educated how to make the jump from where I am now to where I would like to be later....It seems that the really big money only comes for people like me when you start your own business and put enough of your heart and soul into it to make it succeed..... Got lots to think on for the next few years....

Edit: It also apparently takes some luck and a skilled financial mind....Hope my new girlfriend is up for this task

[ 12-30-2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

NAFTA - there's a can of worms. Whirlpool, which is an employer of tens of thousands in IL, announced it will be shutting down operations over the next 2 years and relocating in Mexico - where the wages are $2/hr.

Now, is the problem that we opened the economic border, allowing companies to go to MExico? Or is the problem the labor union that saddled Whirlpool with a cutthroat collective bargaining system so it could turn around and pad the Democratic nominees with millions in campaign funding?

Same with United here in Chicago. It wasn't the Mechanics Union, which finally was the last straw when it balked at taking a 3rd pay cut. No, it was the Pilots Union, the best in the nation, which pays some veterans upwards of $400k/ year for 40hrs/month (yes, per month) of flight time. Because they wouldn't take a pay cut, the company cut other salaries - finally no one would take it anymore. Bankruptcy was declared. Now who loses? Not United - it just announced last week that it can now (since it's bankrupt) renogiate all its collective bargaining agreements.

I think Unions have passed their time...there was a time before federal regulations and minimum wages when Unions were vital, but I think these days they are causing more problems than they are solving. I have to admit that I have never actually been in a union my self, but my father was quite involved, being a truck driver. There will be a shake out soon with all this and it will be ugly, but I think in the end things will work out well for most people....or I could be full of it and just subject to my wishful thinking.

On the other hand, don't you agree that the world really isn't such a sucky place if you look at what came before?