Filesharing (theft) Some facts about music and copyright:

[Chewbacca]

From the other link:

"We don't do too much crying over here," Cameron Strang, founder of New West Records, admits proudly. The home of artists like Delbert McClinton, the Flatlanders, and John Hiatt has doubled its business for the past three years and is projecting a $10 million income in 2003.

Paul Foley, general manager of the biggest independent label, Rounder Records of Cambridge, Mass., happily brags, "2002 was actually Rounder's best year in history. We were up 50 percent over 2001."

You won't hear many of these labels' artists on pop radio - and ironically, that's one of the secrets to their success. By avoiding the major expenses associated with getting a tune on the air - which can cost upwards of $400,000 or $500,000 per song - independent labels are able to turn a profit far more quickly, and share more of those profits with their artists. Another secret of their success is that the labels target consumers - namely, adults - who are still willing to pay for their music, rather than download it for free.

Other artists, such as Aimee Mann and Michelle Shocked, are going even further - forming their own labels so they don't have to answer to anybody (see "Artists Sing Their Own Notes," at right).

At a major label, most artists are unlikely to earn anything unless they sell at least 1 million albums, and even then, they could wind up in debt. Everything from studio time to limo rides are charged against their royalties, which might be only $1 per disc sold. That compares with an indie artist, who can sell a disc for $15 at a concert. If they make $5 profit a disc on 5,000 discs, they pocket $25,000.

"That's the difference between us and them," Mr. Strang says. "Artists on our label who sell 200,000 copies make a very good living."

Independents also pay profits only after recouping expenses, but they keep those down by curbing marketing and overhead costs. They also have more equitable arrangements with artists, often sharing profits 50-50.

But perhaps the biggest difference is that they let artists keep the rights to their work. Michael Hausman, who manages Mann, says once the large labels get those rights, they may choose not to release a note of music but won't let the artist work for anyone else - essentially bringing career momentum to a halt.

*SNIP*


When rock critic and author Dave Marsh spoke on a panel at last month's South By Southwest music conference in Austin, Texas, he pronounced bigger-label contracts a bad deal for artists from Day 1, "because of unequal leverage."

John Doe, who gained fame with then-wife Exene Cervenka in the '80s punk band X, says majors pump artists' expectations to unrealistic levels.

"With majors, your visibility is much higher, but it's for a much shorter period of time," he explains. "I feel bad for today's bands because they're loved and then they're discarded."

Doe, now on ArtistDirect imusic imprint, also says there's no word to appropriately describe the meddling of major-label A&R people, whose job is to "hear a hit" on each album.

"I personally wouldn't like to be told what kind of album to make," Doe comments. Most indie labels pick up already-recorded albums, or give artists creative freedom to make the music they want.

Adds Doe: "You can't replace the feeling [of] making a record that you're proud of."

[Chewbacca]

*Now* I will bow out of this... "discussion"

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I'll take the bait: From the one of the links I provided earlier: "They're protecting an archaic industry," said the Grateful Dead's Bob Weir. "They should turn their attention to new models." "This is not rocket science," said David Draiman of Disturbed, a hard-rock band with a platinum debut album on the charts. "Instead of spending all this money litigating against kids who are the people they're trying to sell things to in the first place, they have to learn how to effectively use the Internet." "File sharing is a reality, and it would seem that the labels would do well to learn how to incorporate it into their business models somehow," said genre- busting DJ Moby in a post on his Web site. "Record companies suing 12-year-old girls for file sharing is kind of like horse-and-buggy operators suing Henry Ford." Recording artists have watched their record royalties erode over the past few years ("My Van Halen royalties are history," said vocalist Sammy Hagar), but, in fact, few musicians earn the bulk of their income from record sales. "Bruce Springsteen probably earned more in 10 nights at Meadowlands last month than in his entire recording career," said rocker Huey Lewis. "They have all these abnormal practices that keep driving the price up," said Gregg Rollie, founding member of Santana and Journey. "People think musicians make all that money, but it's not true. We make the smallest amount." "The focus of the industry needs to shift from Soundscan numbers to downloads," said Draiman. "It's the way of the future. You can smell it coming. Stop fighting it, because you can't."

There are a number of untruths about elements of this. Namely this one:
but, in fact, few musicians earn the bulk of their income from record sales.

Which is plainly incorrect. I was friends with Gary Beers from INXS for a time. Gary was in the position of being a bassplayer, but not a writer in a hugely sucessful band. The Tours were to promote the record. The tours could lose money Consider that management takes 20% gross (before expenses) and someone like Gary is going to see comparitively little from that. However, it's all to "promote the record". For the WRITERS of INXS, that would be a true statement. The writers would see enormous amounts from radio play, TV play, licensing and the rest. For a writer that's a true statement. For a musician it's untrue.

Just a further example of needing to LIVE in the problem before posting biassed accounts from musical dinosaurs like Grateful Dead, Journey and Van Halen.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: You won't hear many of these labels' artists on pop radio - and ironically, that's one of the secrets to their success. By avoiding the major expenses associated with getting a tune on the air - which can cost upwards of $400,000 or $500,000 per song - independent labels are able to turn a profit far more quickly, and share more of those profits with their artists. Another secret of their success is that the labels target consumers - namely, adults - who are still willing to pay for their music, rather than download it for free. Other artists, such as Aimee Mann and Michelle Shocked, are going even further - forming their own labels so they don't have to answer to anybody (see "Artists Sing Their Own Notes," at right).

This is exactly what I was talking about Chewbacca. I addressed this earlier. Less money on costs, means it's easier to start a label. Less signings means artists often form their own labels. This is all indicative of a slump, not a boom.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 5 albums I have produced for artists that have been released on artist created labels. Plus numerous 5 song E.Ps. I DO know what I'm talking about. All of us would have preferred a record company to front the bill and promote the records.

Please read my posts if you're going to repeat a line of arguing that has already been addressed.

Thanks

[ 02-05-2004, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Chewbacca]

Actually I wont, I have become quite angry.

I spent many years working in the retail side of the music business, supporting artists by playing their albums, even if it a particular album wasn't sanction by my corporate masters. I Worked hard to shut down the many bootleggers who operated on my block selling counterfiets and illegal copies and to catch cd shoplifters who stole music further driving up the prices in way that filesharers could never do.

I literally worshiped my customers and was very passionate about hooking them up with music they may like but never heard of based on their purchases and listening about their tastes.

I loved my job as a store manager of a music store and it broke my heart and sent me spiraling into depression to close store after store til finally last spring I had no store left.

Many of of my colleage and friends, ranging from my hand-selected employees and peers to the label reps who came into my store to promote artists are unemployed now as well because of the decline of the music business. I follow the industry still. Thanks to my connections, I still get invites to the parties, good deals, sometimes free concert tickets and other perks including friendships with many musicians and people who support musicians. I may return to music retail soon now that I have found a company that doesnt toe the line of the big labels and their pricing schemes once a positon becomes available.

To imply I am out of touch and my perspective is pathetic, that dont have a stake in this topic is degrading and insulting.


Now I am done.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I also note my objection to multiple threads discussing the same topic. For the record. [img]graemlins/deal.gif[/img]

You don't expect me to post in Whackmeisters thread do you? It'll get deleted.

In any case, this is a different aspect of the same issue.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Actually I wont, I have become quite angry. I spent many years working in the retail side of the music business, supporting artists by playing their albums, even if it a particular album wasn't sanction by my corporate masters. I Worked hard to shut down the many bootleggers who operated on my block selling counterfiets and illegal copies and to catch cd shoplifters who stole music further driving up the prices in way that filesharers could never do. I literally worshiped my customers and was very passionate about hooking them up with music they may like but never heard of based on their purchases and listening about their tastes. I loved my job as a store manager of a music store and it broke my heart and sent me spiraling into depression to close store after store til finally last spring I had no store left. Many of of my colleage and friends, ranging from my hand-selected employees and peers to the label reps who came into my store to promote artists are unemployed now as well because of the decline of the music business. I follow the industry still. Thanks to my connections, I still get invites to the parties, good deals, sometimes free concert tickets and other perks including friendships with many musicians and people who support musicians. I may return to music retail soon now that I have found a company that doesnt toe the line of the big labels and their pricing schemes once a positon becomes available. To imply I am out of touch and my perspective is pathetic, that dont have a stake in this topic is degrading and insulting. Now I am done.

Your own personal experience directly contradicts what you are speaking about. You were carrying on about a boom, yet suffered as the industry has folded.

I am sorry to hear about your experience. I am bewildered as to why you have levelled rage at labels. Many of the majors consisted of autonomous former independents. I was signed to one such a label that distributed through a major. Had the majors clout and an independents care.

The fault is not with the majors. The industry - with all it's corruption and bullcrap - is what gave you the job in the first place. It may have been broken, but it perpetuated lifestyles, music and culture. Filesharing is what cost it. Removed ANY money from the picture.

I do stand by the out of touch line Chewbacca. You're not an artist out there competing for gigs, for slots, for airplay, for TV play, for signings, for any of that.

I had many experiences with record stores. Went into them all the time. Had friends in them. Checked how product moved, kept up with new music. However I have no idea what it's like to be in your shoes. I only know from a distance not firsthand.

I am truly sorry you suffered as a result of all this mess. I have gone from anger towards majors , to anger at filesharers, to my current position of "giving up". I give my music away on my site. For all I know people hand copies around to their friends. I see nothing from my original recordings. I've had to adjust my philosophy accordingly. I seek to make my living doing advertising music, make original music to be enjoyed.

I'm extremely upset about it though.

[ 02-05-2004, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Hey Chewbacca. You are aware I suppose, that were my CDs for sale in your store, your store would have made more money per CD than I would have?

I don't see a problem with this, yet an mp3 thief would use it as justification for not buying from your store because you are "ripping me off", by taking more than me.

At least that seems to be the logic behind kids who attack a record company for recouping on the money it outlays and using it to justify stealing intellectual property.

[ 02-05-2004, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Chewbacca]

Yeah, we paid 12-14 bucks for a cd and sold it for 18-20. Of course that 6 bucks is not pure profit becasue you still have to account for expenses like payroll and rent as well as shrink. When it was all said and done, our real profits on cd sales were not enough to to stay in business at a either a store or company level having cds as our core product. With big box competitors underselling CDs and out of control expenses with no break from the labels in a tough economy, we were doomed. Out of 800 stores only 20 made a profit in 2002 in my previous organization and the company posted a staggering loss in the hundreds of million.

Believe me, I do not condone illegal filesharing at all, I don't condone big label/retail business practices either.

In the last five years I have been in the offices of all five major labels at least four times a year. They provided meeting space for district store manager meetings in exchange they would give us a lunch time presentation of the artists they were foucusing on at the moment. I not sure if agree, but in my short, but frequent visits I saw and heard about alot of waste.

Whether it was the $10,0000 conference table, or the literally dozens of artists they poor money into hoping one of them was the next big thing, but 98 out of 100 fizzle and get nothing for their effort and are locked into contracts that make it difficult to grown beyond being a pile of demos in the closet with zero radio play. A bunch of money tossed down the tubes and a bunch of dreams not only smashed, but restricted by prohibitive contracts. I think it is nuts.

Many of my friends who are in that part of the biz are in it for the love of music, but are also disgusted by the money practices they see firsthand.

I wont even go into the waste I saw at the retail level. It was just as bad, maybe worst in some cases. The CD party was over a few years ago, but they all kept on like it was 1999.

My disdain for the majors I think is rooted in sound principles and expirience from both a personal and business perspective of the industry. Sure, I am and have been disgusted by the big biz side of the industry, but I love music and I love(d) getting music to people who want it. Thats why I stuck with it for so long and am open to returning.

To reiiterate- I don't support illegal filesharing or big music business practices at all.

I do support proven and successful artist as-well-as fan-friendly business practices that are fair and equitable and not excessivley wasteful.

[Yorick]

Well I'm glad we've found something we can agree on at last mate.

I'm well aware of the "tossing money" element of companies, but the only negative I see in it, is building up the hopes of the artists instead of giving them realism.

At the end of the day though, they walk away with their record. Many of us would be quite happy with that. (It's not about the money) Having someone pay for your record is HUUUGE. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm aware of the bribery that would go on too. Companies bribing guys like you. But that was supposedly justified as a "marketing expense".

As too the profit margin, a band I was in were getting $3AUD per CD. For America it was half that. There were four of us, plus a manager taking a slice. Had we a producer they would have taken a point or two as well. So, $1.5 divided by 5 = 30c per CD for me? Less taxation of course, and only presuming the record budget was paid off.

But rock and roll. 30c is better than the NOTHING mp3 thieves leave us with.

Anyhow mate, on a different tack, check out this song

http://www.hughwilson.org/images/Her...o_2004mix_.mp3

I wrote it a while back, but recently added live drums, and rerecorded guitars last week.

Let me know what you think.