How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

Originally posted by Yorick: [B]How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.
No, too many practioners spoil the soup

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
See above answer

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.
I definitely look to the originator for focus and clarification where I find things that I want or need to understand on a higher level.

Do you focus on the ideas alone.
The ideas are only a part of the whole picture. I take into consideration cause and effect as well as long term consequences of applying said ideas to life on a personal and on a worldwide level, meaning that I consider the animals, the atmosphere, and the environment as well as humans when I comtemplate the ideas and their worth...when I think that some of those ideas may encompass all aspects of life that is.

Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?
I find a few philosophy's ideas work with others philosphies and even religions to create what I feel is harmony and balance in my own life.

Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella?
Most definitely...they are the spices that make the soup edible.

If so:
(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).
I believe that I do know more than those individuals who just stick to one particular mindset of ideals and philosophies throughout life but I don't believe that I can know more than the originator(s), rather that I can only hope to at least reach an educated understanding of them through practice of my beliefs and through my faith. I believe life is an ever-learning process and if I die knowing it all, well then, something went wrong somewhere (lol)

(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs.
It is pretty well balanced as I have seen the progression of a greater measure of peace and harmony with myself and the rest of the planet since I undertook the practice end of my responsibility toward understanding.

Does one outweigh the other?
At times, but I am reminded by dischord (inner or outer) that an imbalance has occured and I focus on discovering my missteps and then on working to restore the balance when that happens.

Have you had a supernatural experience?
Quite a few actually, but nothing that has frightened me since I was twenty three or twenty four years old.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?
Off and on, it is a struggle to maintain a perfect balance when offered temptations to stray into areas of life that are not harmonious with what I consider my level of perfect balance. Life is a job we must learn to enjoy.

There you go. I hope I did not add any confusion to your thought provoking thread! LOL
Great thread btw! I am sure more people will take a look at it and start posting...when I initailly read it, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant (a reading comprehension deficit caused by lack of sleep and overworking myself at school & home ) but when I read it again today and the answers posted by AliCat, Wolfgir, Fljotsdale and yourself, it all became quite clear...at least I think it did! (well I did get a good night's sleep too. )

P.S. Idaho Russets.

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!


[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-02-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: I'm talking the change in MY actions Fjlotsdale. My belief dictates my behaviour. I'm not speaking for or about anyone else. I'm very aware that others may not need belief to do this. A painter, photographer or nature lover for example. I am however talking about the impact my personal perspective has on my actions. This is not meant to be a "my way is right" thread, but an exploration of the processes by which people come to perceptional conclusions. There is no right or wrong here.

Oops! Sorry! Didn't mean to sound crass!

Originally posted by Yorick: Actually perhaps this thread would have had more responses if I'd posted this: right ok...on other threads i'm the philospoher. everybody knows i'm really smart woof woof meeoww... ok....freud kicks a$$...what i want to know is...but this isn't bout freud...nah.. ok which potatoe is best

Hmm!?




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[AliCat]

Interesting responses, Yorick and Moni! Hmmm, Idaho russet, huh? I just like a nice baking potato myself...

Your comments about regarding a leaf, Yorick, actually reminded me of some thoughts of my own. I was brought up atheist/agnostic, and fully educated in the evolutionary views, which I do believe -- the evidence is there, the theory makes sense. HOWEVER... if I hold up a leaf in the sunlight and really look at it closely, at the organization, at the way the individual cells or units seem to sparkle like emeralds in the light coming through... looking at the intricacy and totally unnecessary beauty that is there... that is what proved to me that there is a God or greater being. Sounds dumb, maybe, but I have a hard time believing that a set of genetic codifiers had any need to make things as simple as a leaf, a pebble, or tree bark to be beautiful. To me, that takes a God who appreciates the beauty in every living thing, who can make crystals out of strands of hair, who has the patience to make even minute things incredibly intricate and interesting (dust mites notwithstanding).

So, I'm simple-minded.

Originally posted by AliCat: Interesting responses, Yorick and Moni! Hmmm, Idaho russet, huh? I just like a nice baking potato myself...

Mmmmm Idaho Russets are best baked. They are yet another one of my weaknesses LOL. You've had cravings since you became pregnant right? With me it was baked potatoes, I kid you not! My oven stayed on almost 24-7 so that there would always be a hot fresh baked potato to satify my craving! I read that you are getting little kitten kicks Thats so cool!
Wishing you good health and needed rest.

Yorick, my apologies for moving the topic to taters & babies temporarily!


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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by AliCat: Interesting responses, Yorick and Moni! Hmmm, Idaho russet, huh? I just like a nice baking potato myself... Your comments about regarding a leaf, Yorick, actually reminded me of some thoughts of my own. I was brought up atheist/agnostic, and fully educated in the evolutionary views, which I do believe -- the evidence is there, the theory makes sense. HOWEVER... if I hold up a leaf in the sunlight and really look at it closely, at the organization, at the way the individual cells or units seem to sparkle like emeralds in the light coming through... looking at the intricacy and totally unnecessary beauty that is there... that is what proved to me that there is a God or greater being. Sounds dumb, maybe, but I have a hard time believing that a set of genetic codifiers had any need to make things as simple as a leaf, a pebble, or tree bark to be beautiful. To me, that takes a God who appreciates the beauty in every living thing, who can make crystals out of strands of hair, who has the patience to make even minute things incredibly intricate and interesting (dust mites notwithstanding). So, I'm simple-minded.

No, not simple minded. It is deep indeed to concieve abstractly. Such a conclusion from analysis is beautiful, and I thank you for sharing this. I agree wholeheartedly.

I heard of a Russian painter who had a similar experience (raised athiest etc) when he viewed his hand. He concluded a designer existed despite beeing indoctrinated out of concieving such a notion.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

No, Alicat! Not simple minded at all! I agree with Yorick. You are a very wonderful person to be able to see the innate beauty of nature with such appreciation.

But what's wrong in seeing all that beauty WITHOUT believing in a creator?
I made a comment about it in this thread myself, as a non-believer.

I feel a very deep bond with the natural world. Under a microscope, AliCat, a leaf, a bug, a microbe, is even more amazingly beautiful and incredible - but that does not have to bespeak a creator. Design is said to need a designer, because design HAS to come from intelligence. But why?
Look at crystals - marvels of design, aren't they? But they are just obeying the inherant laws of their substance. So is everything else. THAT is the real marvel.
You may think that laws need a lawgiver, but I do not think that is the case. A substance, by its nature, can only act in a certain way. Its nature is its law, it did not have to have a law imposed upon it by anything/anyone else.

Appreciation of beauty is not the exclusive prerogative of believers!
A world view does not have to be based on belief in a creator to be valid and good. Sometimes, despite knowing believers who are sincere, I think a world full of people whose worlview was WITHOUT belief in a god would would make the world a safer and more beautiful place.



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[250]

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.

no, when you see a big opportunity posted on the front cover of an investment magzine, well, it is already too late. so don't follow the crowd


Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.

see above


Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?

well... whatever the most profitable goes, of course it must be legal and it must not be based on the harm of others


Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:

yes, I like to keep options open

(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).

your portfolio is proportional to the number of failures you encounter. the key is: failure is only a failure is you admits it. failures inspire winners and defeat losers. within your life time, you can generate more wealth than anyone on the earth!


(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?

there is no balance, it is all about seeking opportunities and understand the risk


Have you had a supernatural experience?

yeah, when I just put all my budgets into a public company, BOOOM, market crash


Perhaps you have balanced all the above?

well, stay focused if you are poor. balance never grows, always remember: a risk is a risk because you are ignorant about it. balanced investment does not generate wealth

LOL, just kidding Yorick

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: No, Alicat! Not simple minded at all! I agree with Yorick. You are a very wonderful person to be able to see the innate beauty of nature with such appreciation. But what's wrong in seeing all that beauty WITHOUT believing in a creator? I made a comment about it in this thread myself, as a non-believer. I feel a very deep bond with the natural world. Under a microscope, AliCat, a leaf, a bug, a microbe, is even more amazingly beautiful and incredible - but that does not have to bespeak a creator. Design is said to need a designer, because design HAS to come from intelligence. But why? Look at crystals - marvels of design, aren't they? But they are just obeying the inherant laws of their substance. So is everything else. THAT is the real marvel. You may think that laws need a lawgiver, but I do not think that is the case. A substance, by its nature, can only act in a certain way. Its nature is its law, it did not have to have a law imposed upon it by anything/anyone else.

Law does need a giver. If a law is deemed "natural" by a humanist, then nature is deemed to be the lawmaker. The earth or the universe itself.

The value in seeing a designer, is that the beauty has a reason. A purpose. It can be related to. Put simply with belief I can appreciate everything about a leaf the nonbeliever does - and then some. Rather than just the physical there is the spiritual appreciation.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: Law does need a giver. If a law is deemed "natural" by a humanist, then nature is deemed to be the lawmaker. The earth or the universe itself. The value in seeing a designer, is that the beauty has a reason. A purpose. It can be related to. Put simply with belief I can appreciate everything about a leaf the nonbeliever does - and then some. Rather than just the physical there is the spiritual appreciation.

LOL! For me, my friend, it's the other way round - I appreciate it more because of LACK of 'spiritual' appreciation. It makes me realise I can't depend on a higher power to fix the damage we are doing to the environment - we have to work for it ourselves!
So



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[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: LOL! For me, my friend, it's the other way round - I appreciate it more because of LACK of 'spiritual' appreciation. It makes me realise I can't depend on a higher power to fix the damage we are doing to the environment - we have to work for it ourselves! So

It can't be the other way around Fjlotsdale, I'm not talking about feeling awe or wonder or admiring beauty. I don't depend on a higher power to fix the environment either. I believe we were given stewardship of the planet. We've made our own bed, and will have to fix it ourselves if we want clean sheets!

I'm talking about, when spiritual, the process of seeing TWO things where there is one. One sees the beauty of the leaf, and one sees genius in the mind of the creator at the same time Without belief, one only sees the leaf, because one denys a creator.

It's like looking at a lake that has "always been there". Everyone can see and appreciate the lake. Hypothetically if some people for some reason see a waterfall feeding the lake - the source of the lakes water, then they are viewing both the source and the end result, and can marvel at both. Whereas if for some hypothetical reason some cannot see this waterfall, they can only ever marvel at the lake, at the end result.

You get what I'm saying? The belief gives an extra abstract dimension to the viewing an object.

Oh and don't try and say "oh but I can see the wonder of evolution in a lamb" because evolution is still the end result - part of created reality. I too can say that. A Christian can be an evolutionist marvelling at the theory and still be appreciating the creator.

I realise this concept must irritate you tremendously Fjlotsdale...

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-03-2001).]