Good versus evil

[WOLFGIR]

How can one not stumble on any toes here?? So many outstretched I probably gonna step on them all.. I will however say sorry for all bruised toes in advance!

1. If all religions have a good vs bad. Well as that is to define what good and evil is, I bet you can define such a struggle in most religions. Some might not be so plain however. Take for instance old Norse myth. The giants were bad, Loke was bad, or so said the gods. Odin created mankind from the dead body of a giant, thus evil (in one version) came to good. We are now stepping on Yorricks toes here. The thought and turmoil of evil needs to exist to define good in a crude and short version. (Yorrick said it so well!). So yes I believe that at least I can find the good vs evil in any religion.

2. Nope, but to a certain degree you can always find thoose that have something in common anyway. That is, victorious people are goin to define good and or evil and thus the loosers, opposition are going to be the evil part until most often an "evil act" like war has changed place and people to redefine it. But to find a common thing. Depends on how close you draw the lines. I think that most good acts done for others tend to be good, but even selfish acts can be good. Yet again stepping on Yorrikcs toe here. If good had to create evil in a way to make us see good, can´t we wit a selfish act also make that act a good one??

About the JRR thing here.. Watch out G´Kar and Fjotsdale! Well not knowing to much on what Fjotsdale refered to, I will wear slippers.. J.R.R Tolkien made a classic "heathen"(There are tales like this from many religious traditions) story but with the uneven odds which might refer to Christianity(The christians are mostly fighting against overwhelming odds, but the path of the right thing to do saves them thanks to sacrifices and good acts), but that can also be quite coincidal as well as a moral thing to do the right thing even though it might hurt you.. Most things are in the end. Analyse books and texts and you can soon find out that Elvis do lives on Mars. I don´t mean to ridicule, but analysing material id fun, but the analys is mostly based on how much you know anf how you think.

Finally so I don´t step on more toes.. I will sit down and continue to listen to this! Really interesting..

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

[AliCat]

VERY interesting replies!!!! I'd still like to hear some more responses on the original questions (especially from Diogenes, as after the interesting Bible debates I was hoping to hear more from your perspective), but I liked both Yorick's and Fljotsdale's working definitions of good and evil, and they are rather similar, in a way.

Does anyone know more about some of the other religions like Hinduism or Buddhism? I was under the impression that there are several gods in the Hindu pantheon responsible for destruction as part of the circle of life, but that they were not necessarily thought of as evil, so... I was rather curious what is considered evil, if anything, in that religion? Would having a good time at a hedonistic party be considered evil in Buddhism (or just naughty)?

And just to add on to my eternal list of questions: if you have "Good", is "Evil" necessarily a requirement as well?

Also, and this is for Fljotsdale, say you have a hermit out in the desert or the woods, he's not particularly religious and doesn't pray, but he just doesn't like being around people. Would you describe his actions the rest of his life as either good or evil, or neither?

[domingo]

Originally posted by AliCat: And just to add on to my eternal list of questions: if you have "Good", is "Evil" necessarily a requirement as well?

"You cannot know good without first knowing evil" .... I believe this quote was in the bible somewhere ..... but even if it wasn't it sure does make a lot of sense when you think about it.

[Yorick]

Hindu:
Brahma - The Creator
Vishnu - The Preserver
Shiva - The Destroyer

But these are just aspects of everything, fragments of the Universal soul.

There is still a concept of evil, as Karma unerringly punishes evil - no matter the intent - with a lower rebirth.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by AliCat: 1. And just to add on to my eternal list of questions: if you have "Good", is "Evil" necessarily a requirement as well? 2. Also, and this is for Fljotsdale, say you have a hermit out in the desert or the woods, he's not particularly religious and doesn't pray, but he just doesn't like being around people. Would you describe his actions the rest of his life as either good or evil, or neither?

1. IMHO, no. If everyone behaved in a selfless way, we could make this world a paradise.
The bible promises an earthly paradise for all mankind willing to be obedient to god - but god has to get shot of the disobedient ones first!
Either way, I think a world without badness is POSSIBLE. Whether it is ever likely to happen is another question, lol!

2. This may be controversial, but I would say he was BAD! Why? Because he/she is being utterly selfish!
It is a tempting prospect though... but, no! I'd miss my computer too much!

Seriously... it would really depend on his/her actions. Whether anyone sees or knows what s/he does is beside the point. The hermit would be interacting with the environment, and how his/her actions affected it would determine if s/he is good or bad.

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: How can one not stumble on any toes here?? So many outstretched I probably gonna step on them all.. I will however say sorry for all bruised toes in advance! Finally so I don´t step on more toes.. I will sit down and continue to listen to this! Really interesting..

Hi, Wolfgir!
Step on my toes all you like; they were desensitised years ago, lol! I don't get cross VERY often.


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[Yorick]

Can we universally judge the hermit at all? How is he eating? If he is killing animals he is commiting an evil act from the animals perspective. If he left oved ones, he is being evil to his, say sister in abandoning her and denying her the enjoyment and kinship his company brings.

However, he may be kinless, and seeking truth, thus able to enlighten those that seek him out, giving them a good action.

A human, in my belief can never be totally "good" as we often rob Peter to pay Paul, out of necessity. Much truth in the "all have fallen short" idea.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Bleys]

I have a personal definition for I what Good and Evil are but
This is the only definition that I can think of that defines good and evil for that is common to all humanity.

We all belief a set of beliefs on what is right and wrong. So
Good is what aggress with our beliefs. Evil is what goes against our beliefs.

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: A human, in my belief can never be totally "good" as we often rob Peter to pay Paul, out of necessity. Much truth in the "all have fallen short" idea.

YORICK!!!!!

Stop saying things I agree with!

*mutter, mutter, mutter...*

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Sharpedge]

Originally posted by AliCat: 1) Does every religion include a concept of good and evil? (and is that a requirement for a religion?) 2) Is there any sort of concept or definition of good and/or evil that is common to all humanity? So, what do you think?

While I cannot answer the first part of the first question (Does every religion include a concept of good and evil) because I simply don’t have the knowledge to back up any sort of hunch I might have on the subject, I can make a stab at the rest.

Is a concept of good and evil a requirement for a religion? Since the word religion can be applied (by definition) to any objective pursued with conscientious devotion, I would have to answer a firm ‘no’. When talking of religion as the expression of humankind’s belief in a higher power or powers regarded as creating or governing the universe, it is difficult to imagine such a system of belief arising without an underlying concept of good and evil or a least some kind of opposing force (as Yorick’s nothing vs. something). However, it is conceivable that a religion devoid of such notions could arise (or has indeed arisen) but again, my ignorance precludes any sort of firm conclusion on the matter.

So to the second question: Is there any sort of concept or definition of good and/or evil that is common to all humanity?

For this I am going to shamelessly pillage a passage from a favourite book of mine by the Scottish writer Iain Banks.

Taken from ’The Business’ by Iain Banks: - there is no evil under the sun that somebody somewhere won’t argue is actually a good, no idiocy that hasn’t got it’s perfectly serious defenders, and no tyrant, past or present – no matter how bloody – without some bunch of zealot schmucks to defend him or his reputation till the last breath in their bodies – or preferably some else’s.

Sad that a concept that should be so crystal clear to us as a race, is argued, blurred and eventually forgotten in the wake of our diverse individuality. If only humanity could be united under such a definition, if nothing else.

As for my own religious views, I’ll come right out and state that I consider myself closer to Christianity then any other religion. I believe that the Christian church has much to answer for, historically, and that the concept of denominations is plain ridiculous, but by and large, it feels like home.

Now I realise that other ground is being covered in this thread and I’d like to return to some of the issues raised, but I thought I would try and answer the first two points before I moved on to anything else.

Oh, and like Wolfgir, I don’t want to tread on anybody’s toes here. I have enjoyed picking my way through the thread regarding the bible, and it went a lot deeper then I anticipated. I respect your opinions and your views, and present mine as further food for thought.

Phew!

*goes off for a cuppa*

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

[This message has been edited by Sharpedge (edited 08-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sharpedge (edited 08-28-2001).]