One question to atheists II (does that mean it's two questions now??)

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

*agrees whole-heartedly with Moiraine's post*
I think that it is somewhat arrogant for humans to put ourselves so distinct from other animals, of course there are varying degrees of this, but the chimpanzee, as Moiraine said, is one example of another animal capable of such things as we are.

Just think, we can't tell what other animals are thinking exactly without seeing things to show this, we could see the chimpanzees ability to plan etc by the consequences, i.e the example given of going kilometres away to find specific things.
So, maybe many other crestures are capable of this thinking, and we merely haven't seen it demonstrated- who knows, maybe squirrels look down on us- thinking how they are above us. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Callum Kerr]

Well... it really depends on the height of the tree...

[LordKathen]

There are some great replies here. After reading the squirel post, I was thinking exactly the same thing about chimps.
Great post Moiraine [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img]
Downunder has a good point to. Like I said before, I dont question a persons faith. But I am questioned all the time.

[homer]

I have the same question as johnny. What is the purpose of the post about the chimpanzees? Is it to disprove what someone had said about squirrels?

Originally posted by Moiraine: Chimpanzees don't make war. Chimpanzees don't seek growth at all costs.

Sorry this is definitely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I have seen a program about chimpanzees on the discovery channel. There is a group that goes out on a nightly bases in order to look for members of rival groups. When they find these intruders they hunt them and kill them. This, in my opinion, is just like human wars over territory.

[ 01-23-2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: homer ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by homer: I have the same question as johnny. What is the purpose of the post about the chimpanzees? Is it to disprove what someone had said about squirrels? quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Chimpanzees don't make war. Chimpanzees don't seek growth at all costs.

Sorry this is definitely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I have seen a program about chimpanzees on the discovery channel. There is a group that goes out on a nightly bases in order to look for members of rival groups. When they find these intruders they hunt them and kill them. This, in my opinion, is just like human wars over territory.[/QUOTE]Yes, Neighboring chimp tribes will in fact make war. And, they use weapons. It is interesting that in the animal kingdom, contests between members of the same species are almost never fatal (and almost always involve food, territory, or mating). Man and his closest relative are a rare exception (in that their contests prove fatal - I think even man almost always fights for food, territory, or mating).

[Timber Loftis]

Vaskez:
I know you took a hiatus from this discussion, but if you're reading, I apologize for ascribing a religious view to you that you do not hold. I think my statement applies to whatever religion you are, though, and the "books" of the religion I mentioned only by way of example.

Yorick:
I don't know which of your posts replying to me to sur-reply to, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. By the way, thanks for starting a squirrel thread. I needed it this morning. [img]graemlins/goodmorning.gif[/img]

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by homer: I have the same question as johnny. What is the purpose of the post about the chimpanzees? Is it to disprove what someone had said about squirrels? quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Chimpanzees don't make war. Chimpanzees don't seek growth at all costs.

Sorry this is definitely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I have seen a program about chimpanzees on the discovery channel. There is a group that goes out on a nightly bases in order to look for members of rival groups. When they find these intruders they hunt them and kill them. This, in my opinion, is just like human wars over territory.[/QUOTE]Nah Homer, you can tell me I am wrong on that point, but not that I am off-topic. Or was this topic intended to talk about squirrels only ?

Anyway, even if I am proven wrong on the point of Chimpanzees making wars, that doesn't invalidate my whole post. In a way, you could consider that makes Chimpanzees all the more 'humans' ...

[ 01-23-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Squirrels don't do these things, but chimpanzees do. [img]smile.gif[/img] For centuries, scientists have wondered what exactly makes us humans different from animals. For a long time, the answer seemed to be : Only humans use tools. Heh no. Lots of animals are able to get a nearby rock or branch and use it to help themselves to, say, loot an anthill. [img]smile.gif[/img] Then it was said, sure, but only humans are able to MAKE tools. Nope. Evolved apes like Chimpanzees and Gorillas are able to combine stuff, for example make a longer branch from two smaller branches tied up to get better results from the said anthill. [img]smile.gif[/img] OK, but only humans are able to consciously PLAN. Sorry, again no. A community of Chimpanzees has been observed sending a group 10 km away to a special place when the right sort of rocks could be found to use as tools. [img]smile.gif[/img] I can go on : Only humans laugh ? Nope, Chimpanzees do. Only humans create ? No, scientific projects observing Chimpanzees have provided them with paper and pencils, and some apes made drawings. [img]smile.gif[/img] All these abilities seem to derive from self-consciousness. Are you able to distinguish yourself from any other member of the same race ? Humans do - and again, Chimpanzees do, experiences with mirrors have proven that. So far, it seems that only humans and chimpanzees possess self-consciousness. Other troubling (and IMO exciting) facts. When you give access to a big mirror to a group of Chimpanzees, after a while they are able to know that it is themselves they are seeing, and observe others from the mirror - and after another while they take great fun painting their face and looking at their reflection and laughing ! [img]smile.gif[/img] Chimpanzees are able to learn and use deaf language to communicate - and they are able to express abstraction, like "I am sad because Mum is ill". [img]smile.gif[/img] A young Chimpanzee was raised with a human family. A group of other Chimpanzees lived nearby. When asked, from a set of photos, which ones were of Chimpanzees and which ones were of Humans, she answered correctly for all the photos but one : she put herself in the Humans group ... [img]smile.gif[/img] In a Chimpanzee community, there was one who had a brain disease, making him unable to 'grow up', he was physically adult but behaved like a child. The other Chimpanzees cared for him and sheltered him as a human community would for a fellow crippled human (or some may say better ...). Once he went to the leader and undertook the 'challenge' stance - the leader started to take an aggressive stance, then saw it was the cripple and immediately went back to calm and ignored him. [img]smile.gif[/img] And my favourite anecdote : Two scientists locked a Chimpanzee in a room with various pieces of furniture, to observe his behaviour. So they locked the door and one of them put his eye on the peephole ... to face a huge brown eye looking him back ! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Chimpanzees are self-conscious. Chimpanzees have very complex societies. Chimpanzees think and plan. Chimpanzees learn. Chimpanzees create. Chimpanzees laugh. Chimpanzees have feelings. Chimpanzees care for each other. Chimpanzees don't make war. Chimpanzees don't seek growth at all costs. Chimpanzees leave the world intact. Are the Chimpanzees wiser than we are ? More 'human' ? Are they our future ? Is there a place in Heaven for Chimpanzees ?

Chimps do not have sex purely for pleasure. Only dolphins and humans do.

Chimps do not sit around and make music and art. I have seen "art" humans have made chimps do and it is vastly inferior in every way to that which a human infant makes.

Chimps do not divorce.

Chimps do not become vagrants, engaging in solo treks to find their place in the world.

Chimps do not fear becoming like their father or mother.

Chimps do not seek career satisfaction, nor get frustrated when they are underused or unappreciated in the workforce.

Chimps do not overcompensate for their parents flaws with their own kids.

Chimps do not seek escape from the troubles of life through substance abuse.

Chimps do not commit suicide.

Chimps clearly do not ponder the reason for life, nor the meaning why they are here. They just are. Short term planning is not the same as long term commitment. Long term focus. Complex hypothesis of alternate life choice scenarios. Similarly, using a rock is not the same thing as capturing soundwaves. Chimps continually reinvent the wheel. Humans are able to learn from other humans and make new discoveries and inventions from the foundations of others.

The proof is that chimps have been around longer than humans, or at least as long, and yet do not "advance" their toolmaking from an individual discovery.

----------------

Biologically, chimps are NOT bipodal. Their spines cannot take their weight standing on two legs for long.

Chimps babies are born stronger and with natural instincts and defenses a human baby does not possess.

Chimps noses do not allow them to swim. They drown.

Chimps do not possess the physiology to sing, yet humans are made to sing. Our voices work best and deteriorate far less when singing than when speaking. We possess ventricle bands that exist purely to make our voices sound pleasant. This is not necessary for survival.

So how does a chimp, that cannot stand up for long, or swim, become a human that can do both? How does it devolve into a physically weaker, less instinctive and defended creature, yet more emotionally and intellectually complex?

Regardless, for all their similarities, chimps are very different to humans. When I do study chimps it gives me a greater appreciation and love for the human race - which is hardly a bad thing. It's not arrogant either as someone else suggested, for when I love humans I also give gloy to God for creating such wonderously complex and intriguing individuals.

[homer]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Nah Homer, you can tell me I am wrong on that point, but not that I am off-topic. Or was this topic intended to talk about squirrels only ? Anyway, even if I am proven wrong on the point of Chimpanzees making wars, that doesn't invalidate my whole post. In a way, you could consider that makes Chimpanzees all the more 'humans' ...

Please excuse me; I did not intend to indicate your entire post was off topic. In fact I was indicating that my response about something I saw on the discovery channel was off topic.

As well I did not intend to invalidate your entire post, which is why I only quoted a small section of it.

No offense intended. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[homer]

Originally posted by Yorick: Regardless, for all their similarities, chimps are very different to humans. When I do study chimps it gives me a greater appreciation and love for the human race - which is hardly a bad thing. It's not arrogant either as someone else suggested, for when I love humans I also give gloy to God for creating such wonderously complex and intriguing individuals.

I am curious if you put any stake in evolution. I believe it has been surmised that humans evolved from creatures very similar to chimpanzees. I think that this might explain some of the differences that you refer to. They are simply less evolved.

Regardless, I wonder: do you believe that human beings are the only creatures that posses a soul?

[ 01-23-2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: homer ]