Americans troubled by 'massacre'

[Felix The Assassin]

Whatever one might think, if you weren't there, don't compare. I do not condone these actions, however, I don't condem them either.
What you don't know. This was that Marine unit's second tour in theather. FYI: Marines do a 6 on 6 off rotation, so, this could have actually been their third, either way, they were at the end of their tour, and took a heavy blow.

They were hit, and took casualties, they swept the area, and then "SECURED" it. What order they were given to secure, and what order they conducted the clearing in, will only be judged by the almighty himself. However, our media is only allowing the terrible atrocity of the event to be played. Which can only support the enemy, and those of the anti parties.

The US went to the Balkans in the mid 90s. Call it what you want, I'll call it this. An environment to learn how to conduct operations other than war. What we learned from it was, after a armed conflict, the troops must be rotated, or actions other than peaceful might evolve.

What we have today is just that. Even if you are only in country for 6 months, you need time to decompress. Honestly, I don't know if 6 months is enough. I'm sure there is a bean counter that would argue either direction. But the psychological condition that US Marines are trained to is condusive of rapid destruction of the enenmy. Add to that ingredient, cohesion, Espriti de Corps, and Semper Fidelis, and you have an arse whupping waiting to be conducted.

I'm sure the CMC will get to the bottom, and the wrong does will pay for their actions, but understand this. The actions of a few, will affect the Corps as a whole.


Johnny: Not sure which way to read you on this. Rommel was a tactical genuis! His actions on the field of battle have been recorded as chivalris, dignified, and honorable. If ever you get a chance, check out "Knight's Cross : A Life of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel" by David Fraser. A word of caution, this is a very long, and hard read, but very insightful as well. Remember, Patton was not the big hoss in the early days, and is not credited for the massive loss at Kasserine Pass. However, that event caused him to learn German so he could read Rommel's papers, and institutional doctrine, without translation.

TL's "wholesale slaughter of civilians" has a lot of merit here. Rommel was never accused of that, but sadly these Marines are heade in that direction with a quickness.

[Aragorn1]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: Whatever one might think, if you weren't there, don't compare. I do not condone these actions, however, I don't condem them either. What you don't know. This was that Marine unit's second tour in theather. FYI: Marines do a 6 on 6 off rotation, so, this could have actually been their third, either way, they were at the end of their tour, and took a heavy blow.

I can only comment on what has been reported, obviously if things are substantial different from the reports then one cannot comment. Normally I would agree with you that you should be judge without better knowledge of the facts, but this may be a case of res ipsa loquitur.

I accept that the marines involed may have been under severe phsycological strain, but even so, this is not one man who has cracked under pressure but the actions of a number of people. I cannot see how you cannot condem their actions, even if the level of blame is less than that of a murderer. A normal person would not be excused these actions, but these were marines, they are trained soldiers, some of your best. They should be expceted to show a level of discipline and conduct of which these actions fall short.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Aragorn1: I accept that the marines involed may have been under severe phsycological strain, but even so, this is not one man who has cracked under pressure but the actions of a number of people.

I acknowledge what has been snipped off of your quote.
A play of words can go either way here but the pretense of "a number of people" may come back to be not of the same content.

Originally posted by Aragorn1: Normally I would agree with you that you should be judge without better knowledge of the facts, but this may be a case of res ipsa loquitur.

Hmm, to which event? The remotely detonated IED that destroyed the vehicle and caused the casualties? Or perhaps, the aftermath, in which this topic is under discussion?

[Chewbacca]

It's war, all this talk of ethics and training means squat to a stream of dead people and a throng of alive people doing whatever it takes not to join the dead people. War is the problem itself, this type of event is just a symptom.

[Luvian]

To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman.
-George Santayana

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Aragorn1: I cannot see how you cannot condem their actions, even if the level of blame is less than that of a murderer.

I can't speak for Felix, but I can't condem their actions because I don't know what they were yet. I did read that marines came under fire from a building and then subsequently took it out with an air strike. I would bet they used suppressive fire in the meantime, and .223 rounds can and do go through walls and kill people on the other side, even innocents.

So, we have unprovoked massacre on one side vs. coming under fire and doing what Marines do (e.g. kill everything in an area) on the other.

A "car bombing that led to a subsequent firefight," as the article describes it, could actually contain several different substories.

I do doubt that a whole squad or platoon of men all went all "Bunny" at once.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Luvian: To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. -George Santayana

What a quote!

[Luvian]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. -George Santayana

What a quote! [/QUOTE]And this quote explain to me exactly why the soldier or captain should never become the stateman. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[shamrock_uk]

Having said that, it worked alright in ancient Greece

[johnny]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Johnny, I realize you're a wannabe Southern U.S. Republican at heart and want to give the military deference, but the wholesale slaughter of civilians is just that. It wasn't fair game in WWII or Vietnam, and it isn't fair game in the desert now. That said, let us please wait and see what the findings are. As the government has stated, it's premature to assume anything until their investigation has determined whether or not they will indict anyone. You can't trust the media to know or predict on this one, they're just running to the next talking head who'll give them 5 minutes of air time.

You're mostly right there, except for the southern part, sorry to dissapoint you.