Gaza gunmen drag EU into Danish-Muslim blasphemy clash

[Sir Degrader]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: Half the problem with the uneasy process of integration is that both sides are too scared of causing offence to the other that none of the fundamental issues/incompatabilies ever actually get thrashed out./QB]

You sure about that? Seems to me only one side really gives a damn about integrating.

[Morgeruat]

About the boycott, I do have to wonder, how much do islamic countries buy Danish goods in the first place?

[johnny]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: About the boycott, I do have to wonder, how much do islamic countries buy Danish goods in the first place?

Apparently Denmark was exporting quite a lot of dairy products to the middle east, don't have any numbers though.

[Lucern]

I used to want to see this as a conflict of cultures. I learned recently the flaws in that conception. Culture is used as a convenient reference to a group of people, or people who hold a certain belief, etc, which is fine as short-hand reference, but a useless concept if you want to talk about social reality. It's traditionally invoked as a result of power differentials. Only the poor or marginalized have a culture. We could make sense of this by asserting that a socially liberal society is doing something that's riling up a fundamentalist one, but then we'd be painting all members of both sides similarly. I would pity a society that's 100% fundamentalist, but I don't think that's ever the case (consider the harsh punishments such governments have to employ to keep order).

What I see here is bullies with an over-inflated sense of self importance making physical threats because their unchanging ideology was challenged in its righteousness by others. The pathology of their position is particularly evident in their response to words (or art, in a particularly harmless setting no less) with threats of violence. Unacceptable. Such people should be disarmed and ignored until they're ready to talk about their actual problems. Don't fool yourself into thinking that such members are representative. They might seem common in the media, but until angry fundamentalism is approaching 100% of a community, you have to look for other causes for the attitudes of these young men than religion or 'culture' because this is an incomplete and offensive characature itself, particularly given the different iterations of Islam and Middle Eastern diaspora communities around the world. Note that governments making a stink about this are doing so for political reasons, and they're sure as hell not popularly elected. I wonder how long it'll be before they quietly reinstall their diplomatic infrastructures.

I also see a top-down invocation of cultural inferiority, and I for one would stop myself before making such a claim. Even if you believe it, consider your position and theirs, and wonder about its validity.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Lucern: Only the poor or marginalized have a culture.

Blimey, I'll have to think about that one!

I would pity a society that's 100% fundamentalist, but I don't think that's ever the case (consider the harsh punishments such governments have to employ to keep order).

Excuse my ignorance here, but is a society considered fundamentalist purely because of its stance on a particular issue (like religion) or does being fundamentalist mean something more specific about the makeup of a society in the same way that a word like 'republic' does?


Thought I'd include some email correspondence from one of my friends about this issue as he's normally got a good point or two to make.

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Hehe, this is one of the rare issues we probably agree upon...
I doubt there will be any kind of meaningful dialogue about freedom of
expression etc., but I still think it's important to protect the right
of the press to publish such caricatures. Too bad that the Danish
newspaper has meanwhile apologized for printing the cartoons. If you
want to see some of them, follow this link and click on
"Bilderspezial" on the right hand side:
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/01/839513.html

Still, I wonder whether this episode really indicates that there
exists a fundamental cultural gulf between the Muslim world and the
West. Imagine what radical Evangelicals in the US (a country, let's
not forget, that was debating whether to make flag-burning illegal)
would do if, say, a French newspaper published cartoons ridiculing
Jesus. I think if opposing them on Iraq is enough to lead to a
boycott, then making fun of their religion, i.e. something they really
care about, could lead to an altogether more severe response!

Probably the difference, if there is one, is more one of degree, a
function of which societal groups hold relatively greater clout (after
all, not all Muslims are protesting this), how deeply freedom of
expression is enshrined in the political culture of the state, etc.
Never underestimate the force of history as it is embodied in a
country's institutions.

After all, it is not as if people in the West
somehow came to the world with an "Enlightenment" gene; given the
values they presently hold, if many Christians today were given the
task of writing their countries' constitutions, I don't think the
result would be that different from what many conservative Muslims are
aiming for...So thank God for America's civil religion and the worship
of its constitutional documents!


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[ 02-02-2006, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by Stratos: Well, the link worked when I added it. The server is down, I guess.

The server 'bombed'... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Kakero]

I wonder how the christian world would react if someone draw a cartoon of jesus naked and rubbing backs with young boys?

[johnny]

Originally posted by Kakero: I wonder how the christian world would react if someone draw a cartoon of jesus naked and rubbing backs with young boys?

Well, not in a mannner like they did, i can tell you that much. I am a Christian, be it only in name, as are most of my friends, and neither me or them couldn't care less if you set the bible on fire right in front of our eyes. The only reaction you'd probably get, is "what a nutjob".

I'm sure the Vatican would object and so would some die hard Roman Catholics, but they wouldn't go protesting in the streets, shooting in the air with kalashnikovs, and making death threats towards pretty much everything Islamic. You see...we here have minds of our own, we don't blindly obey our religeous leaders. Hell...i don't obey any leaders for that matter. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Morgeruat]

Kakero, I think you're missing one fundamental fact, it has happened already. There was a play (not sure if it ever got to broadway or not) depicting Jesus and the apostles as homosexual teens in a modern school setting. It was denounced almost universally by christian leaders, but no death threats were issued that I'm aware of, nor in the case of the "piss christ" (google it if you are unaware what it is) did it result in death threats, I linked here a while ago about comparative reactions as the "piss christ" was displayed in Australia, a die hard Christian who was deeply offended by it damaged the picture and said if he had access to the artist "I'd like to punch him in the nose." Hardly an equivalent reaction to something that is arguably a greater blasphemy than that of the cartoons linked above. As Johnny said, the difference is that while we may not like what you have to say, or agree that it's art, we will not stop you from making your statement, nor threaten you with death for making one they disagree with (there are exceptions like Pat Robertson who everybody that has half a brain ignores outright).

[ 02-03-2006, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Sir Degrader]

I'm VERY hesitant to bring this up, but is it the fundamental differences in the religions that causes this strife? Please PM me if you know Islam, I'm quite curious, and sick of both sides throwing vitirolic statements around.