RE: Why does god let it happen? Divine plan?

[skywalker]

There have been many Christians Radicals (no one here of course! ) who believe that AIDS is punishment by God on gays and lesbians.

Mark

[Yorick]

Originally posted by tracey: if we take this idea to its logical conclusion, the chritian west wouldn't help thirld world countries because they are simply getting what they deserve?

No. That would be a Hindu philosophy in action. Karma dealt the hand so why should we help?

Christian organisations can and do help the third world. I have had a sponsor child with Christian Childrens fund for the last twelve years.


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[250]

Yorick, once again, well said!

[tracey]

yorick, you stated or qouted the following:
'why would a nation founded on christian puritans and based on biblical principles and trust in god be the most prosperous, enterprising, culturally advanced and technologically inventive on earth.'

(...........integrating ultimate consequence into a hypothesis must be attempted to ascertain the truth inherent in a particular hypothesis)

the implication being, as you well know, that this particular nation to which you refer, is in some way blessed by a god. the further implication (note the word implication) being that nations who are less fortunate are not blessed by this god.

i merely wish you eplain more fully the thoughts that bring you to this view and why, if you don't think it is so, you imply that it is with the statements that you make.



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offended mistress of the illuminati

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by tracey: the implication being, as you well know, that this particular nation to which you refer, is in some way blessed by a god. the further implication (note the word implication) being that nations who are less fortunate are not blessed by this god.

Just because it is implied that America is blessed by God, should in no way be misconstrued into, "and we are the only ones."

For me to say that my family is blessed, based on our beliefs and actions is simply my faith. I know my family is blessed by God, but also know many other families around the world are also blessed.

I don't try to determine who is "more" blessed. I'm satisfied with our blessings and am happy to tell the world about them.

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"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-20-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by tracey: yorick, you stated or qouted the following: 'why would a nation founded on christian puritans and based on biblical principles and trust in God be the most prosperous, enterprising, culturally advanced and technologically inventive on earth.' (...........integrating ultimate consequence into a hypothesis must be attempted to ascertain the truth inherent in a particular hypothesis) the implication being, as you well know, that this particular nation to which you refer, is in some way blessed by a god. the further implication (note the word implication) being that nations who are less fortunate are not blessed by this god. i merely wish you eplain more fully the thoughts that bring you to this view and why, if you don't think it is so, you imply that it is with the statements that you make. ------------------

Are you reading what I'm writing or pretending to?

That question was the Hindu Guru's that cast doubt on his own views of Karmic rewards. I did say later in my post:

"The school of thought that God has actually rewarded this country is not one I necessarily hold to. However, when pursuing the "I blame God for not saving these lives" this other toss of the coin must be considered.

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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-20-2001).]

Karma is merely a fancy word for cause and effect. Many religions world wide have a similar concept, though the exact and precise interpretations of the concept vary, even within an "individual" religion.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: Karma is merely a fancy word for cause and effect. Many religions world wide have a similar concept, though the exact and precise interpretations of the concept vary, even within an "individual" religion.

I'm talking about the original Hindu definition which is more than just 'cause and effect'. What you are talking about is 'cause and effect' not 'Karma' which is a little different.




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[DioCheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Why would a nation founded by Christian puritans and based on biblical principles, and trust in God be the

This is Dio........... (Cheetah is pretty fact free on the below... )

Just wanted to address this quickly before conking out for the night, but this is a bit of oft repeated propaganda of the religious right in America that, historically, amounts to complete hogwash.

The United States was founded by many people, of many different philosophies. The Puritans were only a small segment of the greater population that founded this country. At most, the Puritans can be said to have "founded" only the individual states of Massachusetts and Connecticut, as these were the areas which they settled and thereby created colonies. The other colonies, which became states, had very different origins. Virginia, for example, was created not by Puritans and not for religious purposes at all, but purely for reasons of economic gain by wealthy individuals who had the backing of the British throne. Virgina was founded for the purpose of large plantations to grow tobacco for export.

All of the other colonies had similar secular origins, not for religious purposes at all. Hell, the puritan colonies of Massachusetts and Connecticut were not even the first to be settled -- Virginia was. And before Virginia at Jamestown in 1607 (Mass Bay Colony was not founded until later in 1620) the first English attempt to colonize the New World was at Roanoke in North Carolina in 1580, and that also was for purely secular purposes, to establish an English presence in the New World in an attempt to gain some of the riches that England's rivals like Spain had been reaping in Central and South America for years.

As for the US being based on Biblical principles, that is another bit of religious right untrue propaganda.

What is the creating document behind the US gov't? Plainly, it is the US constitution. The US constitution had little or nothing to do with "biblical principles." Instead, it represented the culmination of a branch of political philosophy which can be traced at least as far back as the works of such English philosophers as John Locke. The issues it addresses, namely the relations of the people to their government, the rights of the people against their government, and the structure of that government, has nothing to do with anything in the Bible. If I am wrong, please quote chapter and verse which address said issues.

Furthermore, the men called affectionately today as "the Founding Fathers" were certainly NOT in any way shape or form "Puritans" or religious fundamentalists. The provisions which they put into the constitution regarding religious freedom actually flew in the face of what the Puritans who arrived on the Mayflower at Plymouth Rock would have liked. It is commonly recognized that those Puritans left England to practice their own religion. It is not so widely known, but equally true, that as soon as they got over to their new land they set about trying to force that same religion on any and everybody else.

Originally posted by Yorick: I'm talking about the original Hindu definition which is more than just 'cause and effect'. What you are talking about is 'cause and effect' not 'Karma' which is a little different.

I see your point and would like to add some thoughts of my own :

and to continue the karma thought with relation to America...I think it is the general idealogy of a nation that determines its cause and effect, its string of consequences on its ride through history. America's progressive ideology highly suggests an atmoshpere of thought that would lead to the manifestastion of wealth, prosperity and creative culture although their is still plenty of poverty here as well. Some cultures (including some American) are tied by their ideology to a cycle that that doesn't promote the ideals of wealth, joyful living, and freedom. Like some Hindu ones, particularly those that include strong aestetic philophies.

BTW Thanks for sharing your thoughts before Yorrick, Ive been bad and replied to a post at the end of a thread instaed of at the beginning, but the thinking on karma inspired me Anyway, I really enjoyed reading your response to my initial post.