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Old 11-27-2003, 01:52 PM   #11
khazadman
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Why should we trust that report? ZaRos, everything that was put out by the Iraqi government was a lie. They've been doing it for decades so only a fool would believe that report.
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Old 11-27-2003, 02:09 PM   #12
ZaRos
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Well you might say that; every think they have put out the last many years has been lies, and I do not disagree. But right now it seems that the report was correct after all, and there is nothing to indicate that illegal weapons is to be found.
So if the coalition had listened to the leader of the weapons inspectors Hans Blix, and had investigated the matter. We might have avoided this illegal war.
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Old 11-28-2003, 12:50 PM   #13
Azred
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I don't think any rational person believed that Hussein had as many weapons of mass destruction as Bush claimed. Neither do I think any rational person believed that Hussein had no such weapons. He most likely did have some, but they have been destroyed or made unusable by now, whether Hussein did it himself or Coalition forced did it.

As Ronn Bman said, no sane person believes everything thier government tells them. Ketchup is a vegetable, remember? [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img]

This is why I have always stated that Bush should have made the Iraq conflict about removing Hussein and not about weapons of mass destruction. One must always choose a cover story--a lie, if you will--carefully just in case it backfires later. I thought the politicians in Washington were more subtle than that.

Finally, if our actions were illegal, then why doesn't someone step forward to place us "under arrest", so to speak? Azred looks around, but doesn't see anyone stepping forward. That's what I thought. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]
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Old 11-28-2003, 01:11 PM   #14
johnny
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Quote:
originally posted by Azred

Finally, if our actions were illegal, then why doesn't someone step forward to place us "under arrest", so to speak? Azred looks around, but doesn't see anyone stepping forward. That's what I thought.
Careful with what you wish for Azred, nobody might be stepping forward to arrest you, but someone might place a bomb under your seat when your not paying attention.

[ 11-28-2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]
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Old 11-29-2003, 04:21 AM   #15
Azred
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I don't doubt. Unfortunately, that's just how the world is these days....

The point I was trying to make is that I hear many people saying that "America was wrong to enter the war" or "the war was illegal/all about oil/etc." Expressing an opinion is fine, but these people are quite passionate about their belief; however, I don't see them trying to do anything about it. Where is the grass-roots movement behind a candidate who is willing to try and unseat Bush in the upcoming election? Are they volunteering with the campaigns of politicians whose views mirror their own?
There is a point past which talk moves from being insightful commentary or detailed and logical criticism into being merely mantric repetition.

Now let's look at the word "illegal". Illegal in what context? Is there some governing body (other than the UN) under whose rules we decided to play? For example, suppose it is illegal to wear mismatched socks in my town but not anywhere else. If I visit you and I wear mismatched socks have I violated the law?
Usually those who say that America is doing something illegal are referring to the World Court. Since we don't recognize their "authority" then we cannot break their laws because their laws don't apply to us.

Forgive me for being overly verbose; sometimes I don't seem to be able to state things more simply.
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Old 12-01-2003, 01:12 PM   #16
Timber Loftis
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azred:
1. Where is the grass-roots movement behind a candidate who is willing to try and unseat Bush in the upcoming election?
2. Now let's look at the word "illegal". Illegal in what context? Is there some governing body (other than the UN) under whose rules we decided to play?
3. For example, suppose it is illegal to wear mismatched socks in my town but not anywhere else. If I visit you and I wear mismatched socks have I violated the law?
4. Usually those who say that America is doing something illegal are referring to the World Court. Since we don't recognize their "authority" then we cannot break their laws because their laws don't apply to us.
Sorry I numbered your questions, but that was for clarity.

1. http://www.deanforamerica.com/
2. Illegal in the legal context. Actually, there are several, but the UN is a good umbrella that ties them together. The governing body of law regarding war is made up of treaties -- which are contracts, your word, your bond. Off the top of my head, the UN Treaty, several Vienna and Geneva Conventions, and some WMD treaties (like SALT agreements, etc) would apply. Each one of these is technically a separate legally-enforceable requirement. Just because we snub our nose at the UN does not mean we don't have diplomats sitting there everyday. We are still part of it.

Now, the "legality" or "illegality" of going to war in Iraq is very arguable. When you get down to it, the cease fire accords (several UN resolutions over a dozen year period) Saddam was subject to likely gave the US its own right to go back in to enforce those accords if they were broken -- with or without UN approval.

3. Yes and yes. This is one of my worst hacks. But, it's the way it is. People who aren't from Chicago get stopped here and caught with handguns all the time. Possessing one is illegal here, whether or not you have a permit for the gun, and even if you are just passing through. My wife prosecutes these all the time. Misdemeanor with a fine. You can usually get off, but YOUR GUN IS GONE FOR GOOD, even if it's one of those nice $1200 ones. Too bad so sad.

4. Actually, the US doesn't recognize the International Criminal Court, which was created by a recent Treaty that the US chose not to sign (and for good reason -- that's another thread). The UN court of general jurisdiction however is the International Court of Justice, or ICJ. Only countries can be parties to a lawsuit there. Now, the US did rescind its compulsory jurisdiction agreement after it got pissed when Nicaragua sued it for bombing a harbor in the 80's, but by then most countries had rescinded compulsory jurisdiction. In fact, almost all countries are thumbing their nose at the ICJ. So, in order to get sued there, a country must agree to be sued there on a case-by-case basis. Which, of course, has hamstrung the ICJ.
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:53 AM   #17
Azred
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Sorry I numbered your questions, but that was for clarity.

Apologies are unnecessary, especially when clarity is the result. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

1. http://www.deanforamerica.com/

Oh, him. I suppose he'll perform reasonably well. Let's keep an eye on him and see if he can make some real waves.

2. Illegal in the legal context. Actually, there are several, but the UN is a good umbrella that ties them together. The governing body of law regarding war is made up of treaties -- which are contracts, your word, your bond. Off the top of my head, the UN Treaty, several Vienna and Geneva Conventions, and some WMD treaties (like SALT agreements, etc) would apply. Each one of these is technically a separate legally-enforceable requirement. Just because we snub our nose at the UN does not mean we don't have diplomats sitting there everyday. We are still part of it.

Now, the "legality" or "illegality" of going to war in Iraq is very arguable. When you get down to it, the cease fire accords (several UN resolutions over a dozen year period) Saddam was subject to likely gave the US its own right to go back in to enforce those accords if they were broken -- with or without UN approval.

Focus on the white text. Enforceable by whom? The UN? Not likely, since no organization in the history of the world has ever (to the best of my knowledge) policed itself completely, correctly, and/or ethically.

3. Yes and yes. This is one of my worst hacks. But, it's the way it is. People who aren't from Chicago get stopped here and caught with handguns all the time. Possessing one is illegal here, whether or not you have a permit for the gun, and even if you are just passing through. My wife prosecutes these all the time. Misdemeanor with a fine. You can usually get off, but YOUR GUN IS GONE FOR GOOD, even if it's one of those nice $1200 ones. Too bad so sad.

What I meant is this: suppose wearing green is illegal only in my town and I take a trip to visit you, whereupon I choose to wear a green shirt (which is legal in your town). Have I broken any laws? That is, do the laws governing my town apply to me even if I am in your town?

4. Actually, the US doesn't recognize the International Criminal Court, which was created by a recent Treaty that the US chose not to sign (and for good reason -- that's another thread). The UN court of general jurisdiction however is the International Court of Justice, or ICJ. Only countries can be parties to a lawsuit there. Now, the US did rescind its compulsory jurisdiction agreement after it got pissed when Nicaragua sued it for bombing a harbor in the 80's, but by then most countries had rescinded compulsory jurisdiction. In fact, almost all countries are thumbing their nose at the ICJ. So, in order to get sued there, a country must agree to be sued there on a case-by-case basis. Which, of course, has hamstrung the ICJ.

ICC, ICJ, etc. they're all pretty much SOL. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]
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Old 12-02-2003, 05:58 PM   #18
Azimaith
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Quote:
Originally posted by wellard:
we were right, iraq had no womds

Just post me a link to all those (the WE were right)that said Saddam was telling the truth before the war

Then just post a link to where the WOMD are now please. The ones he said he had, have been proved to have and refused to show evidance of being destroyed.


Then you can be smug after the event.
First off, its true, the WMD thing was a big fat failure, whether they were buried forever under the Iraqi desert, moved into Syria, or for somereason Saddam just liked looking suspicious and kicking out weapons inspectors it probably will never be known, however, the war in Iraq in my opinion was and still IS a facet of the entire war on terror. Saddam was a terrorist supporter, he sponsored it and therefore he falls under category of a terrorist nation, its as simple as that. I'd rather that Bush simply said, Saddam is a terrorist sponsorer and therefore he must be removed as a battle in the war on terror, simple as that, all this mucking around with WMD's was a sad waste of time and I will admit I was bought the WMD story waaay to quickly.
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:18 PM   #19
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Ummmm..... just to note. There has been no published intelligence data that shows Iraq had any direct involvement in terrorism or implicitely supported terrorism. There was one "terrorist camp" found durring the initial strikes of the war, but no published evidence has shown any ties this camp had to Baghdad.

Without further evidence, drawing that conclusion would be like making the connection of the Michigan Militia to the US Army or Michigan National Guard.
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Old 12-03-2003, 12:12 AM   #20
Azimaith
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Quote:
Originally posted by Night Stalker:
Ummmm..... just to note. There has been no published intelligence data that shows Iraq had any direct involvement in terrorism or implicitely supported terrorism. There was one "terrorist camp" found durring the initial strikes of the war, but no published evidence has shown any ties this camp had to Baghdad.

Without further evidence, drawing that conclusion would be like making the connection of the Michigan Militia to the US Army or Michigan National Guard.
Plus 3 other high ranking al qaeda terrorists operating out of northern Iraq, one of which had his leg amputated at a hospital in baghdad, not to mention he pays the families of suicide bombers money. No ties at all for sure.

[ 12-03-2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Azimaith ]
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