What's better (Magic)

[Gab]

Is there any point of having offensive spells in this game? A lot of the spells (even at a high spell level) do only around 5-30 damage to monsters. That's useless because I'm fighting monsters with over 300 hip points. What spells do you know that are very damaging and that I should try to have my mage or preist learn.

[el_kalkylus]

Gab, you need to look at monsters resistances, and to do that, you need a character with high mythology skill. You also need to check the level differences between your party and the monsters they face. The bigger difference, the less effective magic will be.

Then you could use more than one character to do the damage, and the effect will be devestating to those you fight. If you fight only one monster, magic is less effective, but the more monsters you fight, the more powerful magic is. Melee parties have to run around, while magic parties can stay put.

Read EE_Worzelle's long post after this post, and you will really be convinced that offensive magic IS effective.

[ 06-10-2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

[EEWorzelle]

Gab, the post in the Alchemist thread that el_kalkylus referenced gives an example of how powerfull casters can get in this game.

There is another aspect to your question about the beginning of the game, when the magic characters are first starting out. Fireballs and Whipping Rocks are great when you get them, but what about Level 1, 2, 3 and 4, when there is very little cone or area effect stuff? For that I would like to mention the surprising power of the "Magic Swords."

"Magic Sword" is an analogy in this case and refers to Energy Blast and Frost for the Mage, Acid Splash for the Alchemist, Make Wounds for the Priest, and Mind Blast for the Psionic. At level one, one can almost despair about these having any value at all. For example (unless you put character creation or level-up bonus points in Magic Realms, which I never do) the Alchemist typically gets 3 Spell Points initially in the Water Realm. So you can cast it once for, what 1-7 HP, and then you're out. Actually it's even worse than that because initially you cast it at Power Level 1 on orange or even red, so it will backfire or fizzle more often than not.

The situation at Level 1 is little better for the others. The Mage can cast each of it's two on Level 1 twice (total of 4 attack). The Priest usually twice, and the Psionic 1. Okay, that's the bad news, so what's the good.

The key at Level 1 is to use and replenish a lot. Take lots of naps, but keep them as short as possible. After battle, in a safe spot, if you can heal wounded characters with spells (don't use up your precious potions for this), then do so before sleeping. Watch the blue mana bar carefully and as soon as it is close to the top stop sleep. This is key or too many enemies will spawn.

As your Magic Realms go up through use you will get more Spell Points from that and, of course levels. By level 3, you will be able to cast each (except Mind Blast) 4 or more times, before resting. As you can cast them in the green, they always succeed and the damage they do gets better on the average, too. If the enemy is in your face, then casting on the yellow is a good bet, too (there's a distance effect to spell casting - closer is better).

Fight a distant enemy and you will discover one of the greatest things about casting these spells in the green. They never miss. A few (but very few) early monsters are resistant to Make Wounds or Mind Stab which can give little or no damage, but normally they always do damage that really adds up. The Mind Stab spell is particularly effective because it often drives the target insane, as well as damaging it.

The "Magic Swords" of the low level caster start out slow but rapidly become very effective. As soon as cone and area effect spells appear they take a back seat but they did their job of building up those realms, and have strategic value throughout the game. They "just happen" to be in the realms you most want to build up.

Even on Ascension Peak, Make Wounds is one of my favorite spells against certain foes, and it only costs 14 SP to cast at Level 7!

[ 06-10-2003, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[el_kalkylus]

No, Worzelle, I refered to the post you just wrote. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ChaosTheorist]

Is there any point of having offensive spells in this game? A lot of the spells (even at a high spell level) do only around 5-30 damage to monsters. That's useless because I'm fighting monsters with over 300 hip points. What spells do you know that are very damaging and that I should try to have my mage or preist learn.

Any point? That's a joke, right? Here are a few results from touring my solo Bishop around the Rapax Castle:

Might-to-Magic, PL 7, costs 84 SP, consistently does 90-120 HP damage and returns the same number of SP against Rapax Berserkers. IOW, I kill the Rapax and *gain* spell points in the process.

Death Cloud, PL 5, killed 8 of 21 attackers in the first 2 rounds of combat, including 6 that I never saw because they were around the corner.

Tsunami, PL6, did an average of 80.4 HP damage to a mixed bag of 10 Rapax Warlocks and Berzerkers. Highest damage was 114 HP. Yes, that's 804 HP of damage generated by a single casting.

Earthquake, PL6, did an average of 73.5 HP damage to a group of 6 Rapax Samurai and Warmages--*after* they put up Magic Screen. Highest damage was 82 HP; lowest was 67 HP.

[Gab]

Thanks for the information,Theorist! Unfortunatly my mage or preist cannot learn those spells and I'm close to finishing the game. The next time around, I'll choose an alchemist or psionic for my party. But I still think that a lot of offensive spells are worthless. Frost and acid splash only took a 2 or 3 damage from many monsters. Should I coose an alchemist or psionic for my next party?
Not sure wich one is better and I need a preist for healing.

[ 06-10-2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Gab ]

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

I havn't tried the Psionist but I've tried the Alchemist and I'd
never be without one now.

[ChaosTheorist]

From the Mage book, I'm seeing 100-180 HP damage from Concussion, and 50-70 HP per opponent from Nuclear Blast and 30-60 from Blizzard against Rapax Warlocks--and that's through their PL7 Magic Screen. From the Priest book, Falling Stars is performing about the same as Nuclear Blast, and Lightning runs a little behind those two.

WRT classes, when I build a high-magic party I *always* include an Alchemist and a Psionic. I see party-building advice all the time that always seems to say the same thing: "You need a Priest and a Mage". I almost never invite a Mage, even in high-magic parties: I'll bring a Samurai instead, or use a Bishop and have her specialize in the Priest and Mage books. For my money, both the Psionic and Alchemist are noticeably more powerful than the Mage. I've probably run close to 20 different parties (not all to Ascension, of course), and I think I may have included a Mage once.

[el_kalkylus]

I think mage is the most powerful magic user in the game since I don't only think about efficiency in the end game when you can cast tsunamis efficiently for example.

Think about the beginning and middle of the game. Fireball versus alchemists firebomb. Fireball is chosen at level 5, and firebomb at level 8, so the alchemist lose 3 levels and efficiency on this one, plus that the spell cost more for the alchemist. Then we have iceball. The alchemist can cast an acid bomb once doing slightly less damage for many rounds than an iceball does in one round. In divine magic, we have magic missile which is also a pretty good spell, and in earth we have the whipping rocks (same as alchemist), and in air we have noxious fumes (same as alchemist.) Moving up the levels, we get dehydrate which is great against rapax, and freeze all. I don't have time to think about more spells, now it's work time. You all get the idea.

[EEWorzelle]

[I had not read el_kalkylus' post prior to posting mine below. He states the virtues of the Mage better and more elegantly than I. His analysis of spells reminded me about Banish, which is a very powerfull spell on the peak that the Priest and Mage have, but not the Alchemist or Psionic. Against certain foes, the roles are reversed and Banish and the Mage and Priest, are more powerful than the other casters. It is more often the other way, but the Mage is definitely good for Balance]

ChaosTheorist, I believe that's a little harsh (but only a little) concerning the Mage. Mostly I agree with you. I'm sure you would agree there is nothing fundamentally weak about the character, if Dominus happened to be a bit less fire-resistant place.

I was disappointed in my Mage in my first party, too, but since then have developed him or her differently, with more of a Water-Earth emphasis (then Air, Divine, Mental and finally Fire), and, shoulder to shoulder with the Alchemist on the peak, performance is about 90%.

So why not just two Alchemists?

Well, the end of the game isn't the only part of it. The Mage gets offensive magical power faster than any other magic class and their Fire realm spells are powerful through about half of the middle game. Having the Mage protection spells early is very nice and X-Ray, cast by either a Wizardry-knowlegable character or a Gadgeteer is indespensible, IMO.

Why not a Samurai or Bishop? Actually, both are viable options. Bishops develop slower, and there is always "pressure" to save your spell picks for later, so the Bishop, in practice, will not hit the ground running in the same way a Mage does. For many of the Mage spells, if you don't get them early, why get them at all. The Samurai is nominally four levels behind but in practice it is more like seven or eight. Again, the strength of the Wizardry realm is early.

I don't like to creep around, hide and run a lot. With a Mage in the party I am less likely to need to, and more likely to survive the first half of the game. Currently, like el_kalkykus, I'm playing in EM and IM modes, so getting through that first half of the game safely is a challenge. Also, the Mage makes a great charater to cast a fast Element Shield. On Expert Mode, as you probably know, it is important to get those Soul and Element Shields up before enemy casters and Haste does not change the order of casting in the round it is cast. By making the Mage fast it removes that burden from the Alchemist, who would rather put those Attribute points in something else.

The Mage is good in a balanced magical party. Knowing what you know now I bet you would develop your Mage very differently today than what you did your one time you actually used one. Try one out in one of your current parties. I know we all tend to want to go for long term power but 90% isn't bad and that early power can really assist in agressively developing the other characters for the long run and still surviving in the meantime (like going for Powerstrike and Powercast both, with the Priest and Alchemist).

[ 06-11-2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]