Alchemist!!

[EEWorzelle]

ChaosTheorist, I did not think you were patronizing at all. I assumed you were, and are, genuine in what you say. I'm not that clever. If you ever really do want to insult me you have to be direct, otherwise I will assume the best.

Those characters were about Level 22 or 23. Throughout the entire game, in almost all my games, enemies are taken out with magic. Melee and ranged are for bosses and cleanup, mostly. The high Powercast levels comes from getting it early, +3 at level-ups thereafter, up to 75, and constantly using spells the whole game. Any Alchemist who get Powercast fairly early, puts +3 in at level-ups and casts spells the whole game should see Powercast levels like that. The 100-110 Powercast comes from an Amulet that give +10 Powercast. I think my Mage was wearing it.

"So it's rare but not uncommon; got it"

Sorry about the lack of clarity there. 1000+ damage per character round is not uncommon, 1300 and 1300+ are rare. The Tsunami spell and others like it top out a bit over 100. Banish is another good one. Once casting is at Power-Level 7, the only thing that can raise it further, directly is caster level, but this is not as big an effect as taking it up in Power-Level.

Regarding Earthquake versus Tsunami, I agree. Tsumami is my favorite spell and Water realm happens to be very powerful in this game. The Mage and Blizzard are not far behind. Blizzard is a great level 6 spell. Although Earthquake only gives like 70 damage per, I think it has greater potential in really large battles because so many are potentially exposed to it.

"And this is where I'd use a high-level Death Cloud if available."

You see, that's exactly what I am referring to, and 99% of Wizardry 8 players would probably do the same. It doesn't hurt anything, but for the style I am referring to it doesn't help, either. In terms of what it takes to do the job measured in required spell points and rounds, it is entirely irrelevant whether I am damaging 20 or 6 enemies. Reducing that 20 downward in number does no more than make the spells less efficient. Use those spell points that would have been used to cast that cloud for something instead that damages them all, even if it is just a little, like Acid Bomb. Every little bit helps but killing enemies one at a time, or all simultaneously, a bit at a time are like oil and water, they do not mix well.

A lot of "conventional" wisdoms as they would apply to Melee-orientated parties simply does not apply if one is using magic damage for killing. For example, if you are coming up to two enemy parties it might be smarter to take them both on at once, rather than one at a time. The reason is it makes more efficient use of your limited magical energies.

Actually, some players with really high Powercast prefer Death Wish type spells and claim, in some cases, they can pretty much get all of the enemies that way, apparently. I cannot speak to that either way because I never bother with those spells. I go right for the damage generating ones. So not all Magic-Heavy parties use the strategies I'm describing.

About the Bards and Gadgeteers not benefiting from Powercast, yeah, it is disappointing. In one party, early on, I actually, naively, went for Powercast with both. What happened was no increases through use. I could put +3 in at level-ups (and I did so) but there was no noticable impact and I think the fact there were no increases at all through use of their music/gadgets means Powercast is not being used by them. In a way, I'm glad, at least in the case of the Bard. Instead of Powercast I go for Powerstrike and the Bard becomes very powerful in Melee. With her shield she is the tank of the party, responsible for cleanup and bosses, as well as her Bard duties, such as Haste. healing, restoration, etc.

[Wereboar]

Tsunami is definitely a kick-ass damage spell. Bang-for-the-buck, it's the most damaging spell in the game. Well, technically I guess it's second best, but the "real" most damaging spell--Banish--is so special-purpose that I don't count it.

Well, just in the described battle against demons, it could have done great damage.

As an aside, the Death Lords in the SE Wilderness shrine seem to consistently get *great* results from Death Cloud, at least on Expert difficulty.

Maybe they have a high powercast

I don't bother casting kill spells myself, but in this battle, usually all cultists and their elementals get killed by two or three reflected (eye for an eye) death wishes from those death lords.

resistances. Resistances of 90-110 are not too bad at all.[/qb][/QUOTE]Power Cast at 95+? Holy crap! Again, what level are these guys?

Bards and Gadgeteers are already penalized during combat by being Stamina-based;

IMO its a huge bonus that they use stamina to cast spells. Stamina potions, Rest all spells, and the Renaiisance Lute are very cheap ways to restore their 'spell points'.

It sounds like you use the bard as a fighter with utility spells. I use them more like rangers, with instruments as spells, and a bow as backup. Especially with several stamina regeneration items, they can use intruments every round. They got ko from using it, but recover at the end of the round.

[ChaosTheorist]

quote: Bards and Gadgeteers are already penalized during combat by being Stamina-based;

IMO its a huge bonus that they use stamina to cast spells. Stamina potions, Rest all spells, and the Renaiisance Lute are very cheap ways to restore their 'spell points'.[/QUOTE]The Renaissance Lute is great once you get it, but it comes pretty late in the game. Rest All is also great--if you have someone who can cast it. But my current "no magic" party has shown me just how limiting the stamina-based abilities of the Bard and Gadgeteer can be. Basically, after the first 2-4 rounds, they're out of commission half the time, either because they're unconscious or because they're quaffing Stamina potions to keep from getting that way; in either case, they aren't contributing to the effort.

It sounds like you use the bard as a fighter with utility spells.

Never. A Bard that isn't playing an instrument is a misused character. I put them in the center, equip them with a shield (and a just-in-case sword and bow), and have them play, and play, and play. I've seen postings from people who have developed their Bards as melee characters who can also play, but have never tried that path myself.

I use them more like rangers, with instruments as spells, and a bow as backup. Especially with several stamina regeneration items, they can use intruments every round. They got ko from using it, but recover at the end of the round.

Again, getting "several stamina regeneration items" comes pretty late in the game. The two Regeneration Necklaces available early on didn't cover my two-Bard-and-2-Gadgeteer party too well, so Saxx and one Gadgeteer were conked out half the time in long battles.

FWIW, I reverse the priorities of my Rangers: their primary responsibility is to shoot and shoot and shoot, with the backup assignment of casting the occasional bomb or Razor Cloak, plus healing between battles. A developed Ranger with a Triple-Shot Crossbow and decent bolts can generate an impressive amount of damage (and a satisfying number of Instant Kills) well before the opposition gets into melee range.

[EEWorzelle]

I would like to try to dispute the statement

"A Bard that isn't playing an instrument is a misused character".

I guess this thread has drifted from the Alchemist to the Bard, but actually there is one of each in all of my parties.

One experienced player on another board said recently that the Bard is the 3rd most effective fighter in the game after the Fighter and Rogue. Well, I am not an expert in either the Fighter, Rogue, or most Hybrid characters for comparison, but I can certainly verify that the Bard, at least the first one in the party, is awesome in both Music and Melee. To achieve that potential, however requires precise development of the Bard.

The Bard has one huge advantage over the Fighter, Rogue, and any other character in the game, and that is the Bard-only items that add to attribute points.

The "Bloodlusty Bard" (Bard equipped with the sword, Bloodlust) is an incredibly awesome melee fighter. With 2-3 attacks of 3-4 swings each, the Bard can sometimes rack up 500-600 damage in a single round. The extra swing and 2x beserk damage bonus of Bloodlust is what makes this possible. With Dexterity 100 and Senses almost that high, this gal just cannot miss or (with high Powerstrike) fail to penetrate.

The Bard can take advantage of several factors to become awesome at both Melee and Music, especially when a Mook (who would have guessed?) is chosen for the Race.

1) The Bard gets something like 60-70 Attribute points just from Bard-only items (the player gets no choice about which ones, but one can plan for what the Bard gets in games after the first one).

2) Some of what the Bard gets or can get from items can bring Speed up from 35 to 55 and Haste, from there can bring it to 125. Thus even a Mook, with just a starting Speed left alone at only 35 can be used and still operate with 125 Speed in most areas of the game. The Bard is the best Haster, but most of the advantages of Haste do not begin until the following round, so there is no advantage, just for Haste, to make the Bard fast before he or she casts it. This saves 65 Attribute points.

3) The Mook is also good for Piety being low. It starts at Piety=25 and goes down from there. No problem. Piety does give some Stamina but Strength=125 and Vitality increases later make the Bard's Stamina good. Some things have to be low for others to be high. This saves 20-30 Attribute points over a more typical level of 45-55.

4) Using one +20 Strength ROTR and another item it is possible to get the Bard to Strength=125 which gives +150% damage! Maxing Strength naturally give Powerstrike with excellent penetration. Strength of only 100 (example - natural 60 plus 2 ROTRs) is way below the Bard's potential. Attribute points are well spent here.

5) With Speed and Piety so low, the Mooks starting Level in things like Strength, Dexterity and Senses is excellent. Going for Strength and Dexterity first then Senses and Vitality is very powerful.

6) Dual Weapons are possible, but I have found secondary weapons in this game underwhelming and the Primary Weapon is impeded by the Secondary Weapon until Dual Weapons=100. With a powerful primary weapon like Bloodlust, it takes a long time to get a net gain from the Secondary Weapon. In the meantime, the Bard is very hitable, in spite of a few AC from Reflextion. But a shield, on the other hand, changes the Bard from a powerful fighter with light armor into a powerful fighter and tank. At high Shield Skill (over 75) and a Heater Shield, +6 AC is added and most attacks that hit are blocked outright by the shield. This allows the Bard to wear the relatively light, special Bard-only items, with their Attribute benefits, even when heavier armors are available.

7) If really trying to optomize, Intelligence is fine at the minimum level. Music takes a little longer but not much due to constant use.

8) In my current game, just after going to Level 6, my Bard's Close Combat Skill and Sword Skill are 27 and 32, respectively. This is made possible by also having a Gadgeteer in the party to do Locks and Traps. I am also trying no points at Level-Up in Music, so Shields, Sword and Close Combat get 3 at every Level-Up.


For the Alchemist, my current try is to make a Staff and Wand, as well as Alchemy specialist. Again, I use a Mook to get high starting levels in all except Speed and Piety. This time I am trying to go for Powerstrike before maxing dexterity. At a level of 70, Dexterity is already not too bad. The Alchemist doesn't get the Bard special items so, since I went for a Mook, I will be putting some points in Speed later, to bring it up toward 55. At Level 6, Staff and Wand and Close Combat are both over 20. To understand this development of the wonderful Alchemist, it is necessary to view him in context with the rest of the party.

I made my Priest and Alchemist melee specialists and my Psionic and Mage ranged specialists (in addition to maxing their Magic capabilities). Mainly this is possible through the discovery that Piety actually does very little for casters. It's direct and indirect effect on spell points is small and with Soul Shield, Element Shield and Magic Screen in place, Iron Will is mostly redundant (and only benefits each character that independently has it). It is ironic that even for the Priest the starting minimum Piety level of 60 is quite sufficient for all purposes, as far as I can tell.

[ChaosTheorist]

I would like to try to dispute the statement "A Bard that isn't playing an instrument is a misused character".

[long, extremely well-thought-out analysis deleted]

That's probably the best "How to build a Fighting Bard" analysis I've seen; nice job. I don't know if Ironworks has a facility to archive such useful information, but I'm certainly going to keep a copy.

And it's an irrefutable counter to a claim like "It's impossible to have a Bard that's a pretty good melee character". However, that wasn't what I said. If anything, your excellent analysis just serves to support my point:

1) With detailed analysis and rigorous development, it is possible to build a Bard that is, at best, the third-best melee fighter in the game ("at best" because I'm not convinced that an appropriately-developed and -equipped Samurai wouldn't out-perform the Bard as a hack'n'slasher)
2) While this third-best melee fighter is doing all that fighting, who is playing all those heavy, expensive instruments you gathered?
3) Since no one is playing any of those instruments (oops--gave away the answer to #2 there), what good are they doing anyone?

That's my point about the Bard: her raison d'etre is to play; any time she isn't doing that, you're giving away her Bard'ness in exchange for something that a number of other classes do better than her.

I agree, though, that the Bard-only items rock. Someone at Sir-Tech must have had a definite "thing" for the Bard class; it seems to have received a *lot* of thought, effort, and TLC.

....Mainly this is possible through the discovery that Piety actually does very little for casters. It's direct and indirect effect on spell points is small and with Soul Shield, Element Shield and Magic Screen in place, Iron Will is mostly redundant (and only benefits each character that independently has it). It is ironic that even for the Priest the starting minimum Piety level of 60 is quite sufficient for all purposes, as far as I can tell.

Isn't that silly? You'd think that something as in-your-face as a primary character statistic would have a definite, measureable, and (at least in some cases) indispensable value. I.e., there would be some number of classes (Priest being the obvious one) or skills for which a high Piety was critical, and you'd pay a large penalty if you didn't develop it. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case in Wiz8.

[EEWorzelle]

ChaosTheorist, glad you found some value in it.

The result of Bard vs Samurai is surprising. It has to do with the high damage and attributes of the Bard. When the Bard gets 3 attacks, of 4/4/3 swings each (using Bloodlust), it then comes down to how many hit, penatrate, and how much damage takes place. The Bard's Powerstike plus 125 Strength giving +150% damage are very powerful. It is difficult to bring the Samurai's damage above 100 (typically +10 per item).

In the case of my curent EM and IM party, they got toasted at level 9 by a couple Bull Picuses (it was deep night and I didn't see the second Bull). At t hat relatively early level, the Bard's Sword Skill was already 56, and Close Combat not far behind that. Sword is the Samurai's big advantage over the Bard, but the Bard is also an Expert (or can be). The Bard there would have hit STR=125, SPD=125 (after Haste), Dexterity > 100, Senses > 100, well before the end of the game. The 2x Damage of Bloodlust only increases the impact of the +150% Damage (vs the Samurai using it). Thus the Bard hits close to all the time, with huge damage, with highest attacks and swings.

The Samurai has better secondary weapons, but the Bard can use a Poison or even Canezou Dagger. There are complaints about the Samurai's defense in the front line, and for the Bard it could be the same, but if they both use a Shield instead it changes them into a tank but then the secondary weapon becomes unimportant.