fair or unfair.. spoils ahead

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Assassin - What's a nerf? (besides the football, that is. )

[Assassin]

powered down. It's like what Sanchuudoku got (the slowdown to the regen rate). In this case, it's not really a nerf, however.

[Harkoliar]

no worries assasin! at least your honest in this stuff! I DO have one question though. Im not sure if i have the nerf toning down for the greater werebears. Can you point to me the mod that gives the toning down? I would love to tone down my greater werebears since i do know its way cheesy in a way that they can defeat my enemies without my help.

Actually, now that i remember it, i did reload once with torgal and using the werebears since torgal actually did defeat my bears with his yuan ti mages ( i was not able to distrupt thier spell casting with my insect plague). plus, with confusion and domination, my bears had no chance. With my front line gone, they rushed towards me and minsc with his lilacor and full platemail had no chance. just want to let you know that even with werebears its not all rush and crush method, there was tactics as well.

anyway, just to let you know on some points:

? Monster cap removal? Spell-50 doesn't change the monster summoning limit...

no its a different mod i installed in. i believe mages and clerics can summon armies if they wanted to, i mean look at the shadow lord at umar hills. he has minions all over the place, why cant i?

The thing I don't like about the Spells-50 mod is that it basically makes all Fighters obselete. After you hit a certain level, who cares about how much melee power you have? Your Wizards will be destryoing things with a single blast while the fighters of both sides are futilely trying to spend 3 rounds getting through a Stoneskin.

thats true, but i did say above that wizards in "real" fantasy settings are really powerful. fighters, clerics and everone always give a wary eye on them because they are an enigma. as for your advantage in ai, that is true as well, provided im in tob to make full use of it since right now im at a newbie stage struggling. also, as i remember reading on some books of d&d, and the movie of lotr . mages, when doing minor spells on people (making them immobile with a look), they dont need a posture and time really for casting these spells, only in major spells that they need to chant and wave thier arms. my 2c.

Minor rebuttal: That's why you leave guards in a real-life fantasy scenario . And the 'you have been awakened by enemies and must defend yourself' also sort of replaces them finding you. However, I suppose one could also penalize oneself further by imposing a 1 round turn in which the party cannot do anything against those monsters, to show that you're waking up. Just a minor point.

minor point taken

How many? Like 1 or 2? --;;

minor point i want to point out here is that werewolf is greatly powerful in the first place, but they still can be defeated. Other enemies still have a chance against my werewolf and bosses can kick thier ass if they have the proper methods. (but your ai argument sounds good here as well)

... That's like saying "Give me a challenge for this game. Oh, and give me something to take away that challenge." What's the point of getting the challenge in the first place if you're going to try and take it away?

actually the main reason why i installed on tactics would be because i thought it would be fun and "different". certainly "challengeing" wasnt on my mind when i installed this mod. "fight fire with fire" as cerek says.

one last thing

It also goes against my belief that Wizards should not be able to wave their hands, say 'abra kadabra', and kill fighters with a single shot. If that was to be expected, then there would be no point to having fighters at all.

well, i dont think even with the spell50 off that fighters would be THAT killable dont you think. if they do have the right equipment and stuff for it, they can still beat mages even though the odds are against him. i will try and prove my point in tob hopefully when i get minsc or saverok to try and one on one battle. or even in the planar sphere. (but that will be a long while yet)

[ 08-08-2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Harkoliar]

cerek: --------------------------------------- My first few encounters with Improved Illyich were horrible. It took me an entire weekend of trying to beat him the first time, and that was WITH the cheese of closing doors to isolate the characters one at a time.

i remember him, he was a pain in the a$$. however, i got lucky with cloudkill wand, summon monster wand and insect plague to help me in that one but that was a challenge and i didnt use greater werebears just to let you know. [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

[Assassin]

Download the latest ease-of-use. It will give the change I posted after the ADD] part in my rant post.

no its a different mod i installed in. i believe mages and clerics can summon armies if they wanted to, i mean look at the shadow lord at umar hills. he has minions all over the place, why cant i?

Because he's different? Because he has powers that you can't harness? Because if you could have every single power in the game, you would be unstoppable with infinite-ranged-Imprisonments-with-1-casting-time.

thats true, but i did say above that wizards in "real" fantasy settings are really powerful. fighters, clerics and everone always give a wary eye on them because they are an enigma.

'enigma', not 'god'. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

actually the main reason why i installed on tactics would be because i thought it would be fun and "different". certainly "challengeing" wasnt on my mind when i installed this mod. "fight fire with fire" as cerek says.

Okay, my bad. It's just that most people that I know that have tactics do it for the challenge.

well, i dont think even with the spell50 off that fighters would be THAT killable dont you think. They do have the right equipment and stuff for it.

Your fighters will. Their fighters won't. At least, the average fighter won't.

minor point i want to point out here is that werewolf is greatly powerful in the first place, but they still can be defeated. Other enemies still have a chance against my werewolf and bosses can kick thier ass if they have the proper methods. (but your ai argument sounds good here as well)

Actually, I used to be guilty of using Greater Bearweres (stopped when the latest ease came out and never looked back) to balance out tactics; specifically, those Lichs. Therefore, I have a fairly good recollection of just how powerful they are.

They can literally solve all of your problems early/mid game. Except for Vampires (and even then, they do a pretty good job before dying), they roll all over the enemies. Against Trolls, a simple method is to use Slows to take down the regneration rate, then the Bears just take over. Acid Arrows to crucify those lying-down-but-not-dead buggers. They can tank like nothing else if there isn't a Death Spell around (and with Insect Plauge, who cares about Death Spell?). 6 hp/round and great resists means that nothing will harm it anytime soon. With multiple bears to spread out the damage a bit, your frontline will never disintergrate.

Let's just put it this way; if they had mordern armor back in WW2, yeah, you could probably kill one of them eventually. But they would still own the place.

Actually, now that i remember it, i did reload once with torgal and using the werebears since torgal actually did defeat my bears with his yuan ti mages ( i was not able to distrupt thier spell casting with my insect plague). plus, with confusion and domination, my bears had no chance. With my front line gone, they rushed towards me and minsc with his lilacor and full platemail had no chance. just want to let you know that even with werebears its not all rush and crush method, there was tactics as well.

[img]redface.gif[/img] That's why you use Slow to slow down his and the troll's regen, Oracle to dispel his invisibility, and Insect Plague on a hasted friendly fighter than you immediately send to the back ranks. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Oh, and Chaotic Commands is a must with Umber Hulks, even with Werebears. Saves and MR only go so far.

no worries assasin! at least your honest in this

Well, at least we can have a friendly discussion.

[ 08-08-2004, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[Harkoliar]

Download the latest tactics. It will give the change I posted after the ADD] part in my rant post.

thanks for that one

Because he's different? Because he has powers that you can't harness? Because if you could have every single power in the game, you would be unstoppable with infinite-ranged-Imprisonments-with-1-casting-time.

well each to his own on this one. still, having the power to cast a horde of monsters to help me out is more "real" if you ask me. im not sure though, but i think enemies who summon monsters will be affected with this cap removal as well. so they can summon a whole bunch of monsters as well. its the same as casting sirculum and having them be able to cast other monsters with the monster cap on.

'enigma', not 'god'.

point taken , but order to make the spell50 that powerful, then you have to be lvl 25-30 and by then your practically a god already.

Your fighters will. Their fighters won't. At least, the average fighter won't.

ok ok, ill try it with my mage against an enemy boss with party soon. lets see how that goes.

edit for your edit (added comments):

That's why you use Slow to slow down his and the troll's regen, Oracle to dispel his invisibility, and Insect Plague on a hasted friendly fighter than you immediately send to the back ranks. Oh, and Chaotic Commands is a must with Umber Hulks, even with Werebears. Saves and MR only go so far.

i didnt know that slow "slows" down the regeneration of the trolls.. nor can insect plague can be used to spread it via friendly fire. chaotic command (not an option that time with my level cleric/mage aerie). thanks for the tips .

Actually, I used to be guilty of using Greater Bearweres (stopped when the latest ease came out and never looked back) to balance out tactics; specifically, those Lichs. Therefore, I have a fairly good recollection of just how powerful they are. They can literally solve all of your problems early/mid game. Except for Vampires (and even then, they do a pretty good job before dying), they roll all over the enemies. Against Trolls, a simple method is to use Slows to take down the regneration rate, then the Bears just take over. Acid Arrows to crucify those lying-down-but-not-dead buggers. They can tank like nothing else if there isn't a Death Spell around (and with Insect Plauge, who cares about Death Spell?). 6 hp/round and great resists means that nothing will harm it anytime soon. With multiple bears to spread out the damage a bit, your frontline will never disintergrate.

then we have to wait for the endgame eh? my werebears can only do so much methinks.

[ 08-09-2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Harkoliar]

hmm, ive check the tactics on the sticky mod thread... i cant seem to find the werebear rebalancing. can you guys give me the link for that?

[Assassin]

You got me before my edit. [img]tongue.gif[/img] It's the latest ease of use.

[Harkoliar]

really?? where is it? ive checked the sticky mod thread as well for the latest ease of use. can you post me the link? pls pls .

edit: ive checked and what your saying about lvl 22 casting for the werebears was already done with the .14 version. (look at the readme). Its the .28 version already and i dont know where you can find the option for it ( to tone the down the greater werebears). he says that he did tone it down already giving it less regeneration and less attack and stuff. help please? my druid can still summon it at lvl 12 and not at lvl 22 as it is suppose to say.


he says

* Shifter Rebalance: Animal Summoning is now much weaker. In particular, the Greater Wearberes are now a 22nd level summon and the default behavior is to summon Normal Weaberes. They have two-thirds the hit-dice and attacks, but most notably their regeneration is much slower. The spell description is not changed because this fix is not finalized -- I encourage comment.

so does that mean its not yet finalised?

edit2: i have the latest ease of use mod installed btw. version 28

[ 08-09-2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Assassin]

did you reinstall the component? It may sound simple, but people often forget to do those things.