Shapeshifter thread for weimer

[daan]

Sorry if this sounds stupid, i dont get a lot of chances to visit my favourite forum anymore ( training to kick butt in jiu-jiutsu tournament [img]graemlins/firedevil.gif[/img] )

Anywayz .. Im not following it anymore ...
My last post was intended to say that the original kit indeed needed adjusting, since the -greater- version was very poor.
I said it was a Greater werewolf, but Dundee's reaction on that makes me think that i might be mixing wolfwere and werewolf up.
Dundee, you seem to think that the fact you change into a Greater Werewolf, means it doesnt need rebalancing. The only reason you'd think that, is if i mixed the terms up and i lead you to believe that at lvl 13 you can change into the Fiirkraag-dungeon wolf-powerhouses....

I meant the opposite, .. at lvl 13 the shapeshifter gets the ability to change NOT into a beast that regenerates all HP in one round etc. . You can change into a really big dog that does nothing else but bark and piss up trees.

If you didnt got confused with me mixing up the names,.. could you explain a little more detailed why the kit doesnt need rebalancing ?
[img]tongue.gif[/img] I might just be blurry of all the kicks to my head

EDIT: Werewolf != Wolfwere .. ehr, you're making me feel stupid now, i dont get it ..

[ 11-19-2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: daan ]

[DJG]

Originally posted by daan: Werewolf != Wolfwere .. ehr, you're making me feel stupid now, i dont get it ..

Werewolf= Human that can turn Wolf
Wolfwere= Wolf that can turn Human

However, I can't see why it being a Werewolf and not a Wolfwere makes any difference at all!

[daan]

Dont remember who's who anymore ,.. but one of them is considerably more powerfull than the other.
Besides a wolf that can turn human, can turn back to wolf again too ... so in that persective they're the same arent they ?

wolfwere - starts wolf --> goes human --> changes back to wolf
Werewolf - starts human --> goes wolf --> changes back to human

Different startint points, but they achieve the same results me thinks ...

[SixOfSpades]

Regardless of the species of their birth, Wolfweres and Werewolves are supposed to have very different fighting capabilities, with Wolfweres being much more powerful.

Dumbshit that I am, I go home every night and keep forgetting to note down exactly what Cernd's paw says. I did, however, do Firkraag's dungeon today, and when we got to the room with the 2 Wolfweres and 3 Greater Wolfweres, I removed all of Cernd's equipment (except his paw), and watched as he bulldozed all of them at once. Then I put his gear back on and let him go play nice with an Adamantite Golem and his 2 Stone Golem buddies. Poking the A.G. to death by 2's and 3's took a while, but there were no complaints from Cernd.....

The upper limit seems to be Dragons. Cernd was unable to defeat either Thaxl'silliya or Firkraag by making himself immune to their Breath Weapon and then charging. I was actually forced to involve other party members, and even cast spells. (sob!)

[Whailor]

I have not tried that mod out, probably wont either, I mean, there's so many other things to do out there then play all this over for 113'th time.. But anyway, something's mixed up here. No char in the whole BG game, whom you play as a PC or who join you as NPC, is a wolfwere. None of them. Cernd doesn't turn into wolfwere either. He turns into werewolf and lateron into greater werewolf, so either the writer of the topic has something mixed up, or the module maker mixed something up big time. Repeat after me, again: Cernd can turn into WEREWOLF and GREATER WEREWOLF, and not some other were-thing.

[White Lancer]

It's more of a thing-were than a were-thing. Werewolves are humans that can change into wolves, wolfweres are wolves that can turn into a human. Since Cernd is a human(oid), that would make him a werewolf!

[Alson]

EDIT: Werewolf != Wolfwere .. ehr, you're making me feel stupid now, i dont get it ..

The != sign is taken from C (and C++), and possibly other programming languages as well.
It means - the opposite of =.
When Dundee wrote Werewolf != Wolfwere, he meant: Werewolf is not the same as Wolfwere. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dundee, confirmation?

[ 11-20-2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[weimer]

First, the Shapeshifter is based on the Werewolf and Greater Werewolf files.
See the README and the files WEREWODR.CRE and WEREGRDR.CRE. I wish I could
claim that excuse, Dundee, but in fact the numbers are accurate.

Weimer simply changed their Shapeshift Special Ability to not actually Shapeshift the character, but instead to create an item that conferred all the correct properties of being a WW or GWW.

Alas, it was impossible any other way. I tried very hard but was unable to
come up with any use of CreateItem() that "felt like" the original *and*
could not be dispelled. As long as I care about fixing the dispelling bug
(and I do -- people have sent me email about it) and until I can think of a
better idea, the "paw" method remains.

1) The "paw" created by the Shapeshift "spell" lasts FOREVER, and can be taken on and off as frequently as the user wishes. This renders the original spirit of the kit ("Can shapeshift into Werewolf 5 times per day, and after Level 13 into Greater Werewolf once per day,")

It is my belief that the original spirit of the kit is in the text, not the
rules (recurring theme for me). Let's quote the theme text instead:

SHAPESHIFTER: This druid is not called Shapeshifter because he has access to a great variety of forms, rather because of his complete dedication to a single alternate form. This druid has willingly allowed himself to become infected with Lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training he has the ability to control his affliction. The creature he becomes is that of the Werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.

Note "intense study and training he has the ability to *control* his
affliction."

But I have 4 objections: First off, Mages cannot cast spells when Polymorphed into a Flind or an Ogre

I think this is a bug as well. I'm pretty sure that 3E corrects this kind of
thing. And while I realize that BG2 is a 2E game, that doesn't mean that we
have to embrace every single bit of 2E stupidity. Finally, note that Firkraag
and Adalon have no trouble casting spells while polymorphed.

What's the point of a Shapeshifter who never actually Shapeshifts?

You must return human to talk to people, I believe.

3) Weimer's kit gives the WW and GWW forms the Warrior's HP bonus due to a high CON, instead of the Priest's. As said above, this gives Cernd 131 hp at Level 13.

I am of two minds on this. This does make a Shapeshifter end up with more
hitpoints than a normal druid. However, in 2E (and 3E) hit points represent
both toughness and also knowledge at dodging, skill, luck, tactics, etc. A
Werewolf with a still-lucid human mind is going to be much better at tactics
than one controlled by bestial insticts.

However, since I'm wavering on this issue and they are clearly strong enough,
I'll remove it in the next release.

Personally, I think Chant and Righteous Magic should stay Cleric-only,

I would agree, if Druids didn't have Bless. The stereotypical Druids could
certainly be seen chanting out there in the moonlight while capturing their
mistletoe with silver sickles.

I suggest a counter-benefit of permanent Barkskin while in Human form.

While this is a nice suggestion, it is even farther from the "spirit" of the
kit that you were talking about earlier than anything I've done.

4) Trying to kill Trolls in GWW form can be problematic

Great, don't we want these guys to have some problems? At any rate, they can
already put weapons in their off-hands.

5) While NOT using a weapon, I say bring on the Gauntlets of Crushing.

I would love to. Infinity Engine rules make it impossible.

I've thought of a couple, of which my favorite is Bramble:

That actually sounds nice. Is that an "official" spell somewhere? It shouldn't
matter (and doesn't to me) but it does seem to matter to 90% of mod users.

there's no need for Nature's Beauty to be so cheesy.

While I can't do anything easily about the radius (it's not stored as an
integer in the SPL File) I can try to make it disrupt invis. I'll put that in
the TODO list. That bit is only sensical -- if they can't see you, how can
they be blinded by your beauty?

I've just started a new game using the Rebalanced Shapeshifter MOD so I can't comment on too much of the above yet, but I have noticed that you can give Cernd instant healing by simply going to the inventory screen, unequipping his werewolf paw, then reequipping it, rinse and repeat.

This is a bug with the original game as well. Give Sarevok the Axe of
Unyielding, take it off, etc. It's an Infinity Engine problem.

a chance of miscasting the spell while in werewolf form? Snouts and paws may be suitable for providing the verbal and somatic components of spells but they could still be clumsy and have a chance of messing the spell up.

Now this isn't bad. I hate completely random chance myself, because it just
encourages the players to reload, but this is not a bad suggestion. Suppose we
gave the forms 20% miscast magic. What do other people think?

"Carrying this Druid around all the time is a pain, but once he hits Level 14 he'll win all my boss fights for me."

Interestingly, Bioware forsaw this problem and made most of the bosses (but
in general only the bosses) immune to Nature's Beauty. Bodhi is a good example.
But that's not much better.

How many characters in your party can just walk up and Tank the crap out of an Adamantite Golem without your even having to touch a single button?

Basically all of my solo characters, actually. I'd expect it from an F/M, an
F/T, a F/D, a Sorc ...

Anyway, now it's time for Celebrity Deathmatch. Here we're going to look at
how these creatures stack up "in the wild". All of these tests were
actually conducted in the game.

WEREGR01 vs. GOLADA01 - A Greater Werewolf vs. An Adamanium Golem.

Golem wins, is taken to about half health.

WEREGR01 vs. WOLFGR01 - A Greater Werewolf vs. A Greater Wolfwere.

Wolfwere wins, thanks in vast part to its 8 hp/sec regeneration.

WOLFGR01 vs. GOLDADA01 - A Greater Wolfwere vs. An Adamantium Golem

Wolfwere wins, thanks in vast part to its regeneration. The Golem could get
lucky with two critical hits in a row, perhaps.

CERND13 vs. GOLADA01 - Cernd/GWerewolf vs. An Adamantium Golem.

Cernd wins. Why? His THAC0 is too good. It is 0 and should be 6. He knows
Single Weapon Style. His AC is 2 better (single weapon style, cloak).

CERND13 vs. WEREGR01 - Cernd/GWerewolf vs. Greater Werewolf.

Cernd wins. Why? It mostly seems to be the hitpoints. Wait ... what's that
... closer inspection reveals that the Greater Werewolf is not actually
regenerating at the correct amount. Yes, it is suffering from that annoying
Infinity Engine bug whereby Permanent Regeneration effects on CREatures
don't actually do anything. Let's fix that.

WEREGR01* vs. GOLADA01 - Fixed Greater Werewolf vs. An Adamanium Golem.

GW wins. If you leave it on complete auto-pilot, the Golem might win
if it gets in a number of good shots in a row -- this was a "tense" fight.

WEREGR01* vs. WOLFGR01 - Fixed Greater Werewolf vs. A Greater Wolfwere.

Tie - could go either way. They both get each other down to Near Death
quickly, then one gets in the finishing blow.

WEREGR01* vs. CERND13 - Fixed Greater Werewolf vs. Cernd/GWerewolf

Cernd wins because his THAC0 is 6 better.

OK, let's go fix Cernd. Change those items so that they don't grant massive
HP bonuses and the THAC0 bonus is lessened by 6 and the AC is the same.

OK, done. Now Cernd is 2 better on the AC (1 for the Cloak, 1 for the
Style), equal on the THAC0 and has 4 more HP (his natural amount). Now

WEREGR01* vs. CERND13* - Fixed Greater Werewolf vs. Fixed Cernd/GWerewolf

Now they pretty much tie. Cernd wins in the end because of his equipment
and proficiencies, but that is to be expected.

---

So, assuming you trust the game designers (who made the CRE files) over the
engine people ... which is basically always the way to go in BG2, a Greater
Werewolf was supposed to be strong enough to take down an Adamantium Golem.
The Shapeshifter Rebalance was still too strong on top of that, but once
weakened it is now comparable in terms of melee to the Greater Werewolf in the game.
Now we add a 20% spellcasting failure to the Greater Werewolf form. Now
we're ready for the prime time. I'll release a version with these fixes in
a bit and you can take another look.

Keep in mind that everything is balanced with respect to a 13th level Cernd
-- we expect a 25th level Cernd or whatnot to be doing much better. This
kit is supposed to remain useful in ToB.

[SixOfSpades]

I'm pleased to report that I finally conquered my stupidity & verified for myself that Cernd becomes a Werewolf. Of course, if you've been reading recent posts, that should come as no surprise to you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by weimer: Alas, it was impossible [to create the Rebalanced Shapeshifter kit] any other way [than creating the Shapeshift Werewolf Paws]. I tried very hard but was unable to come up with any use of CreateItem() that "felt like" the original *and* could not be dispelled.

I'll have to uninstall Rebalanced Shapeshifter and see if those magical paws made with CreateItem() allow speech, spellcasting, etc. I'm pretty sure they don't. Surely you could simply make those items non-dispellable?

I think this [not being able to cast while Polymorphed into an Ogre, etc.,] is a bug as well. I'm pretty sure that 3E corrects this kind of thing. And while I realize that BG2 is a 2E game, that doesn't mean that we have to embrace every single bit of 2E stupidity. Finally, note that Firkraag and Adalon have no trouble casting spells while polymorphed.

While I agree that a Mage is a Mage is a Mage, in whatever form (and taking armor restictions into account) if you "correct" the Shapeshifter to be able to cast, you should be honor-bound to "correct" the Ogres & Flinds as well. Also, no--I believe Firkraag and Adalon DON'T cast spells while Shapeshifted, they use Special Abilities; and so can you. Although that's just a quirk of the Infinity Engine, of course.

You must return human to talk to people, I believe.

I can confirm that you don't. Cernd can run around town, chatting up a storm with anyone he wants, without even suffing a CHA penalty from his glowing red eyes.

I would agree [that Druids shouldn't have Chant], if Druids didn't have Bless.

Anybody can bestow their blessing upon someone/something, but it's tough to sing a Gregorian chant unless you know some Latin.

While this [giving Shapeshifters permanent Barkskin] is a nice suggestion, it is even farther from the "spirit" of the kit that you were talking about earlier than anything I've done.

Not if we simply change the name to something more in character. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Great, don't we want these guys to have some problems [such as with killing Trolls]? At any rate, they can already put weapons in their off-hands.

True. I posted that before I'd obtained Blackblood and Belm.

I would love to [implement the Gauntlets of Crushing]. Infinity Engine rules make it impossible.

Ahhhhhh, phooey.

That [Bramble spell] actually sounds nice. Is that an "official" spell somewhere? It shouldn't matter (and doesn't to me) but it does seem to matter to 90% of mod users.

I've no idea if it has an "official" counterpart in the TSR books, but if it doesn't, it should. It certainly seemed pretty intuitive, and in accordance with existing Druid spells. Now if there was only some way to make it (and Entangle) not work when cast on a hard stone floor, in the middle of the desert, on the deck of a ship, etc.....

Now this isn't bad. I hate completely random chance myself, because it just encourages the players to reload, but this is not a bad suggestion. Suppose we gave the forms 20% miscast magic. What do other people think?

Well, I'd argue for no spells at all, as I want the player to be forced to shift Human every now & then, so I'll say 75%, and hope the mean value averages out to somewhere around 40%.

Interestingly, Bioware forsaw this problem and made most of the bosses (but in general only the bosses) immune to Nature's Beauty. Bodhi is a good example.

Yet more proof of the cheese. Ach, can ye jus' taste it? Eh?

quote: Originally posted by SixOfSpades: How many characters in your party can just walk up and Tank the crap out of an Adamantite Golem without your even having to touch a single button?

Basically all of my solo characters, actually. I'd expect it from an F/M, an
F/T, a F/D, a Sorc ...[/QUOTE]Okay, let me rephrase that. How many characters in your party can you go send to kill an Adamantite Golem.....and then another one.....and another one, and another one, and another one, and another one, without a single spell or potion, while the rest of the party cleans and re-organizes their backpacks?

My experience has been that Cernd is practically unkillable by 99% of enemies, and I haven't been cautious with him at all. When we cleaned out Saerk Farrahd's Estate, naturally I wanted Anomen to do it all himself, so I turned off the Party AI and had Cernd stand out in front and not do anything, while I took Anomen around and, one by one, bashed everyone's head in. Cernd, meanwhile, stood there grinning like an idiot, absorbing Flamestrike after Flamestrike, and staying at (practically) 100% health the whole time. My Point: The whole household put together had no chance whatsoever of killing Cernd. Stun, Hold, Feeblemind, Sleep, etc....no effect at all (and he'd always make his Saves or Resist the spell anyway). He's the only guy I've ever seen who could still be a great Tank while wearing the Ring of Folly.

I realize that Greater Werewolves are supposed to Regenerate 3hp/second, but could we tone that down just a tad? (Or, if his Regeneration was doubled by his Boots of Speed, should/could that be fixed?)

---------------------------------------------------

My Wish List for "The Paw":
* Non-Dispellable
* Non-removable (must be "exorcised" by using Shapeshift Natural Form)
* Only occupies 1 Quick Weapon slot, allowing the Wolf to put weapons in either or both paws (having the game recognize 2 Quick Weapons as being equipped simultaneously is probably impossible, but this is a Wish List)
* Places THAC0/Damage penalties on any weapon placed in offhand or 2nd Quick Weapon
* Blocks spellcasting (OR gives significant random chance of Spell Failure)
* Prevents speech (OR gives -10 Charisma penalty)
* Makes Cernd less invincible than he is at present (giving moderate-level enemies at least a chance of killing him)

[ 11-21-2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]