US Government inconsistancy on bio weapons

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by skywalker: The Patriotism and Pride that becomes arrogance is the stuff that bothers me the most. That is what causes some people outside the USA to dislike us. Some Americans feel it is plain jealousy, because the critics are not fortunate to live here. A people so blind to not see their own faults is a group looking to be hated. Sure its great to be proud of all the good things America does, but to think all that good absolves us of indiscretions is just plain wrong. America should not be a bully, but that is how others perceive us. I don't think I care for that perception, either. But the way to fix that is not by lashing out at you critics like a spoiled child, it is by looking within and examining our faults and trying to fix them. Of course, since we are the Supreme Power in this world, why care or worry. We can destroy anyone who opposes us! Mark

Mark...why does it have to be so black and white? You dont seem to be willing to acknowledge that a person can have pride in their nation while still being aware of its faults. I am. I am very well aware that the US is not perfect. But, given the choice, I'd rather be here than anywhere else on the planet.

And it gets my back up when I see people, who dont even live here, and so, really dont have a true understanding of what life is like in the US bashing her and patronizing her citizens. And before you all bash the hell out of me, its true. If you have never lived here, you have NO IDEA!! I have read and heard quite a bit about various European countries, I know some things I like and dislike about them, but I would never be so arrogant as to think that I KNOW what its like to live there!

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Oh, yes it does, Silver. From the viewpoint of some of them anyway. There HAS been quite a bit of genuine America bashing, so any criticism of America is seen as 'America-bashing' regardless of intent, and it is understandable that Americans are sensitive to it right now. They have never been hurt so much since Pearl Harbour, and they do not understand how anyone could hate them so much as the Sept 11th proved. So ANY criticism of America is seen as an expression of hatred. They are overreacting, is all. They are not able to take criticism in their stride as Europeans do - not at present, anyway. Don't be hard on 'em.

I'm a Londoner not an American and the "American bashing" I was referring to was your comments about them living in a fantasy land and how everybody hates them - very constructive, I must say



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[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: I would never be so arrogant as to think that I KNOW what its like to live there!

Point taken (even if I'm not in Europe)

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Your company has business with the Federal government then? I THINK.. and I'm not a hundred percent on this, but I THINK that it is due to the federal contracts that you can be inspected like that. I don't know if the companies in question have the same situation. As best I can recollect, a private company with no government contracts has different rules. OSHA is a safety inspection, and I do think they are mandated to conduct on site reviews periodically. Anyone out there know for sure about this? My American Government course was a while ago and that point is hazy. Cloudy

Good point Angeleyes! I had forgotten that in my zeal.

Companies that have Federal contracts have MASSIVELY different standards to live up to than private corporations. I have a friend that is a precision machinist. He has worked for several companies. All have OSHA inspections for workplace safety. Those are Federally mandated. But the one company he worked for who did work the the Govt(NASA and the USAF specifically) was under the microscope on a constant basis. Constant on-site random inspections, audits, much tougher standards than their civilian counterparts. So yes, there are differing standards.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: So Cloudy, why a different standard. Why not the same standard for every one. To everyone that think that it would be an invasion without warrant. Think of it this way, if you're driving down the highway and a cop stops you and ask you to blow the bubble to make sure you're not drunk. If you blow under the limit, you're free to go. If you blow above the limit, you're in ****. But if you refuse to blow, you're just as equaly in **** because you have just admited your guilt by refusing to take the test. So why would it be illegal to submit companies to inspections following the very principal that we can legally submit individuals to them? It just seem to me that there more double standards than anything else.

Ah but...The cop has to have reasonable cause to pull you over. Police in the US cant just pull over a citizen for no reason. If they do, even is you refuse the breathalyzer, your case would probably be thrown out if the cop pulled you over just because.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: Mark...why does it have to be so black and white? You dont seem to be willing to acknowledge that a person can have pride in their nation while still being aware of its faults. I am. I am very well aware that the US is not perfect. But, given the choice, I'd rather be here than anywhere else on the planet. And it gets my back up when I see people, who dont even live here, and so, really dont have a true understanding of what life is like in the US bashing her and patronizing her citizens. And before you all bash the hell out of me, its true. If you have never lived here, you have NO IDEA!! I have read and heard quite a bit about various European countries, I know some things I like and dislike about them, but I would never be so arrogant as to think that I KNOW what its like to live there!

You are agreeing with me, don't you see! I stated I have a problem with those who take the pride and arrogance to the extreme. The people with pride who know of the faults of our country, don't fit the description I wrote of. If that describes you, than you were not being referred to in my post.

As for what you wrote earlier, if I said that you blindly follow Bush, I apologise. That was unfair of me - sometimes I lose sight of your (and maybe others) intent.

People may see our flaws from outside the USA. Sometimes we are so close to it or we've lived here all our lives, that we can not see if something isn't quite right. We shouldn't lash out at the criticism. We need to listen and look to see if the points are valid. If we do not, it makes us seem shallow and uncooperative.

This is a world in which we all live. If we continue to foster the "us verses them" attitude (from either direction), there mey be little hope for the human race. It is nice to have a single Supreme Power on this planet, but it should not be the USA, it should be a Nation of the World!

Mark

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by DragonMage: Now, Cloudy - you've raised an interesting point here, too. Actually, let me try something here and see if it works: Driving a motor vehicle - government (in guise of police) can stop you to see if you are drunk. Reason: possible danger to public. Drinking in stationary camper - government cannot - no danger to public JUST from drinking Private facilities which can or do produce harmful chemical agents and/or biological factors - government cannot EVEN THOUGH there is a possible hazard to the public. It is the double-standard we take issue with, Cloudy - not your statement of it, hon. I can't speak for Ryanamur, but I don't think the intention was to come across as though YOU, personally, made a judgement. Just pointing out the inconsistency and irritation towards double-standards. Edit: Did this one make sense? I'm kinda tired right now. Hmmm.... [This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-18-2001).]

DM, Private vehicle on private property and a person or persons inebriated in the vehicle and ABLE to take said vehicle off the property at any time. Keys are in their possesion but they aren't driving it anywhere and engine NOT engaged. Different?

Personally, I know someone who was drunk, passed out in a friend's car and didn't even HAVE keys to the car but was rousted anyway.

Guess it's a matter of where we as a society draw the line?

Thanks DM, for the very FRIENDLY discussion of themes and ideas!

I will add this, I'm not against the chemical companies being asked to comply with our own inspections.. just that by law at the moment they aren't compelled to and may simply feel as the guy in the car with no keys did.. helpless but not guilty.

Cloudy

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[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Nachtrafe, (sorry, I know the following sounds like I'm going here and there without really making a point, but I cannot express it any better right now )

LOL...NP. Besides...I'm running on short sleep, so disjointed is perfectly comprehensible.

The UN is a completely useless body that cannot move or do anything productive. It's paralyzed by the simple fact that nations have a say in the way that business is being done. Above that, you got another council which as veto rights as to any action. So, during the Cold War, nothing was done because the US and USSR just kept opposing each other and vetoing here and there. Now, after the Cold War, the UN is strugling because people see it as a totally inefficient body that is more concentrating on concensus then taking the proper decisions. What the world needs is a body that is fully independant of any nation but that is elected by people world wide with the mandate of taking the right decisions to put things back into place. This will never happen for many reasons, the first of which is national independance. No country would like it if a supreme body decided that no, going to war againsts Afghnistan is not the proper way to go. What do you think the US would say if that organisation would pass a judgement saying that Bin Ladden cannot legally be deported to the US as he didn't commit any crimes there? But I do agree that such a body, if it were to ever come about, should be the totally independant and capable of delevering military might were it belongs. Plus, for such a body to be effective, all countries around the world would have to dismentell their military, recongnize the supremacy ot the said body over all policies and the justice system of the country... It won't happen... but it should if we really wanted peace.

Ummmm...are you really serious? Cuz if you are, I'm scared! You would seriously take the national might of the WHOLE WORLD and put it in the hands of a committee????? Say it aint so! And what do you do when said august body has all that might, and some rogue nation, or petty dictator rises up, attacks and invades another country, and starts the genocide? Take a vote?!? Wait while thousands, and possibly millions die while a proper response is hashed out? While the nation being attacked is crying out in terror and pain at what is being done? While all the rest of the civilized world looks on in horror, and wants desperately to help, but is completely unable, cuz their militaries are locked up under control of some council halfway across the planet?

Ryanamur, that is a TERRIFYING idea!


EDITED: For horrible spelling. Wow...I'm tired. Think I'm going back to bed.
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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"


[This message has been edited by Nachtrafe (edited 10-18-2001).]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: To Mods: would it be possible to keep this tread going. I know we're approaching the 150 mark but the discussion is pretty good and many valuable points are being made. Thanks

Adding my voice to Ryanamur's! This is a rather good thread. And remarkably, its managed to stay really polite for the most part.

Thanks!

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by skywalker: You are agreeing with me, don't you see! I stated I have a problem with those who take the pride and arrogance to the extreme. The people with pride who know of the faults of our country, don't fit the description I wrote of. If that describes you, than you were not being referred to in my post.

LOL...Creepy huh? You and me agreeing. And I do see what you mean. I guess I misunderstood. Your last post seemed pretty black and white. I think I understand better that you were talking about shades of grey.

As for what you wrote earlier, if I said that you blindly follow Bush, I apologise. That was unfair of me - sometimes I lose sight of your (and maybe others) intent.

Its ok. I was really referring to one of Dio's threads where we were going round and round about the relative merits of Clinton Bashing vs Bush Bashing. No hard feeling Amigo!

People may see our flaws from outside the USA. Sometimes we are so close to it or we've lived here all our lives, that we can not see if something isn't quite right. We shouldn't lash out at the criticism. We need to listen and look to see if the points are valid. If we do not, it makes us seem shallow and uncooperative.

OK...I'll grant you this. But, will you grant in return that by the same token that beign on the outside looking in doesn't always bring comprehension? Sometimes it just brings judgementalism. And I dont really think we lash out at criticism, as long as its constructive. We lash out at unnecessary criticism, ridiculous generalizations, or rude insulting looking-down-the-nose.

This is a world in which we all live. If we continue to foster the "us verses them" attitude (from either direction), there mey be little hope for the human race. It is nice to have a single Supreme Power on this planet, but it should not be the USA, it should be a Nation of the World! Mark

I've said this before, as have many others, but it bears repeating. Dreaming about a One-World, Utopian society is all well and good. Dream it, work for it. But remember. You live in the real world and you have *deal* with that.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"