"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

[Larry_OHF]

Yorick, when you continue to try to persuade me and others that Mormons do not believe in the same Christ and that we do not look to Him for the same salvation that you hold dear, you are making a very huge mistake...one that people that hate or fear us make, all the time. Are you not better than that? Do you prejudge us so that you are blind to the facts by trying to understand us from the outside view?

It is not your place to be a judge in Israel.
Do not let misconceptions lead you to sinful prejudging of your brothers.


================================================== =============================

On another note, I have received a message from a person that said that those that held pro-mormonism views were causing the same sting as Yorick was/is to them. This has turned into a Battle of the Right, and must stop! One Christian fighting with another, just because of a few differences cannot be tolerated. It is true that we allow healthy debates but when people openly complain of hurt feelings and feeling attacked, the Mods have to step in, and even if I am Mormon, I have to do my job to protect those that are not of that same faith if they are being hurt by words.

Last word from me on the topic. Please calm it down and quit trying to prove oneself by disproving another.

Go play Escape from Undermountain instead. I'll see you in Level 11.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Having followed this thread - and the recent debate - for the last several days, I thought I would offer another "Christian perspective" on the different denominations and "sects".

As a Born-Again Southern Baptist, I've been called "arrogant" for saying that I know (beyond a shadow of any doubt), that Christianity is the "right" religion. I certainly understand the accusation and I realize it does come across as sounding very arrogant. However, I qualify my certainty of knowledge on several different factors.

First - and foremost - I know the Bible is correct in what it says about developing a relationship with God, following His Path, and recieving Salvation through Grace alone. I know it is right because I have felt God's presence (in the form of the Holy Spirit) inside of me. I can tell you the EXACT moment the Holy Spirit entered into my body and consciousness also (August 17, 1986 right around 7:30pm). I have felt God's presence in my life and I have even heard His voice in answer to specific prayer. I have felt the overwhelming flood of Love and Joy the Holy Spirit brings to the believer. All of these experiences have been very real and very personal...so I know that the Bible is telling the truth about how to follow God.

HOWEVER - I diverge from the mainstream of "Christian thought" in that I know the path I have chosen is right for ME....but I cannot say that the path somebody else has chosen is WRONG just because it doesn't correspond to the path I have chosen to follow. What do I mean by that? I simply mean that the terms Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Muslim, etc are all created by MAN, not GOD!!! Each of these different theologies feel they have the ONE TRUE PATH to God...yet they ALL differ on various fundamental points in their theology.

Lady Aberdeen says that Latter Day Saints are the True Christians. I know many Baptists who feel we are the True Christians (can you say Jerry Falwell, boys and girls? I knew you could. ). I even have a close friend from college who is a Lutheran minister. Not only does he claim that Lutherans are the only True Christians, he goes so far as to say that only his SPECIFIC BRANCH of Lutherans are the only ones that have gotten it right. He even writes off the majority of "mainstream Lutherans" as being deluded and strayed from the "Path" - and thus are on the fast track to Hell along with us "Ana-Baptists".

The point is that ALL of this argument over which theology is right; which group is actually following the One True Path to God and which ones are gonna wake up one day with in a set of burning pajamas; etc is all kinda silly (IMHO, of course) when you look at it from God's perspective. After all, the WHOLE POINT of being a Christian (or a believer of any stripe), is to spend eternity in Heaven with our Creator. So it doesn't matter what WE think when it comes to the One True Path, it only matters what GOD thinks. As I said before, I know I have found the right path for ME....but who am I to say that it is the ONLY "right path" to God? God is Omnipotent. He created the Heavens and Earth and every living organism in 6 days. And God is the only being that has the authority to decide if an individual is on the True Path or not.

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble a bit. What I'm trying to say is this...I may be arrogant enough to say that I have found the right path for me to follow Jesus, but I am not arrogant enough to say that my path is the only "right path". God loves each and every one of us unconditionally and He alone can judge if any individual has followed the True Path to HIS satisfaction or not.

[Larry_OHF]

Well said.

[Timber Loftis]

As the guy who resurrected the right to discuss religion on threads, and avoid the previous ban, I must say that I am learning a lot and would like to see the discussion continue.

However, it can only be done if Yorick (and any others who throw the term cult around willy-nilly) will cease and desist the insults. If they continue to persist with the insults, I am all for closing this thread and ending religious debate on the IWF.

[Luvian]

Guys, this is mainly a gaming forum. We don't mind allowing you to discuss touchy topics like religion if you can behave, but if we have to keep policing those threads all the time we'll simply ban all religious talk again.

If you want to share your opinions with other people then try to do it in a non offending way. Of course it's impossible to discuss religion without offending someone, but be tactfull.

It also help if you can stop and consider other people's opinion. Really consider them. You know, accepting other points of view won't diminish yours. You're never going to convert anyone, you can atleast learn a little more about them. If you already know everything there is to know, then I guess you are simply losing your time.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: What I'm trying to say is this...I may be arrogant enough to say that I have found the right path for me to follow Jesus, but I am not arrogant enough to say that my path is the only "right path". God loves each and every one of us unconditionally and He alone can judge if any individual has followed the True Path to HIS satisfaction or not.

Cerek, this is brilliant. It's something that any person of any religious affiliation can believe without diminishing themselves. If there is a God, in the Christian sense (and please, i mean no offense by stating that conditionally), I'm certain He is judgining us each individually according to how we've lived, not how we've labelled what we've done.

It reminds me of a zen story (koan).

One of master Gasan's monks visited the university in Tokyo. When he returned, he asked the master if he had ever read the Christian Bible. "No," Gasan replied, "Please read some of it to me." The monk opened the Bible to the Sermon on the Mount in St. Matthew, and began reading. After reading Christ's words about the lilies in the field, he paused. Master Gasan was silent for a long time. "Yes," he finally said, "Whoever uttered these words is an enlightened being, close to Buddha nature."

same goal, many paths. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Mouse]

Amen.

[Link]

Amen indeed, Mouse.

I've read this thread with more than great interest, and although I need to get up on time tomorrow morning (it's 1.45 a.m. here) I still want to give my two cents about the whole discussion.

I know this has been said countless times before, but I think it actually is a good point, especially when people elaborate about it from their own experience.
As many of you may know, I'm 19 years old. Not half as old as many of you, and probably not by far as knowledgeable as the lot of you. I'm currently studying History, after spending a year boring myself (just my opinion [img]smile.gif[/img] ) studying Archaeology, something I didn't like.
In the past nineteen years of my life, I have lived the life of an atheist. For me, there was absolutely no point in believing in God, Jesus or anything that is involved in any belief at all. My parents are not religious either, and I sincerely believe that at least has something to do with me not believing. Parental "guidance", after all, is something that influences a child most when growing up.
Although my parents are not religious, as I just said, they did take me and my elder sister and younger brother to church every once in a while. Most of the time this was during Easter and Christmas services. Why they did this I'm not entirely sure about, but I suppose they deemed the whole concept of 'religion' (possibly defined as Christian belief in their eyes) as important enough that their children should at least learn something about it.
In short: I'm not all that unfamiliar with Christian beliefs, although I do not know everything about it.

This year though I met a girl (and yes, I like her a lot) who strongly believes in God, and the beliefs that follow. At first, I was rather scared by that, a bias most likely, as Larry wisely pointed out. However, I decided not to turn away from her, simply because her ideas differed from my own, and we started talking.
Eventually, we also started talking about religion, and, the atheist that I am, I asked her critical questions about the bible and what she thought about things that were in my eyes contradictions. I was surprised by how she replied to my questions, albeit she could not always give me a sound answer. I realised at that moment that I liked discussing religion, and that it was a shame that I knew so little about it.
Thus when she proposed I should come with her to a course, discussing Christian beliefs (they discuss topics such as "sins", "the meaning of Jesus Christ" etcetera, creating room for everyone to give his or her opinion about the matter) I (hesitantly at first) agreed to come, and went with her. At first I felt as if I was surrounded by geeks and weirdo's but soon learned that they were really interested in my view to religion, and I noticed that I was rather anxious to tell them. It gave me the opportunity to not only give them a thought about how non-believers think about the whole concept, but also give myself a clear mind concerning my own ideas - this also in comparison with the ideas they shared with me.

All in all, I'm quite glad that I have followed my friend to that course, and I can honestly say that I am the most questioned person in that course. At every question, they will eventually turn to me for my opinion, asking me how I feel about the subject. This in turn will lead to a friendly, yet interesting debate.

You may now wonder what my point is in this entire story (I did forget it for a moment while writing this whole text [img]smile.gif[/img] ). My point is, that in the end there is indeed NO right belief or non-belief in this matter. The bias that most people have, tends to block their rational behaviour. Why people have so many difficulties concerning religion only originates from their own selfishness and arrogance of 'wanting to be with the ones who are right'. It may be idle hope to 'believe' in something like this, but I think that the world eventually would be a better place if the radical amongst us would finally realise this problem: we are not here to judge who is wrong or right, good or bad, smart or foolish. I have learned this lesson when I came across ideas and theories concerning religion that opposed my own.
The reason why we are here, is to make life worthy living. And the only way we can achieve that, is to accept our own shortcomings, and at the same time accept the benevolence of other people and their ideas.

-----------------

Enough serious business; if I were a vegan, Yorick, I'd be offended by your bouncing egg. Could you please remove it from your sig? This was a joke

[Memnoch]

Let me say one thing: in issues of religion, there is no right or wrong - everyone's got their 2c.

Some tips:

1. Keep calm when debating.

2. Don't abuse or force your opinion on others.

3. Don't be sanctimonious - the other person is as entitled to have an opinion. Just as you think you are right, so does she.

4. Don't patronize - this is a good way to piss people off.

5. Don't talk down to people and make them feel cheap/stupid/ignorant for holding the opinion they have.

6. You can hate the other person's guts for all I care, but you will bloody well show them respect while debating with them.

7. If you're getting frustrated/angry/etc then ignore this thread - the objective of discussion is to learn, not to win. There are no prizes for winning debates here, except to your ego.

8. Get a thicker skin. Someone disagreeing with you is not cause for offence. Personal insults or flagrant disrespect are another story.

9. Accept that this thread can get locked without notice - deal with it if this happens.

10. Be clear on our rules for discussion on this forum - they are in sticky posts at the top of the forum.


If you feel you can abide by these rules then you are welcome to participate. If not then stay the hell out of it.

We are not here to moderate right or wrong - we are here to keep order. Call us Lawful Neutral people in that sense. Fellow mods, if at any time you feel that it's crossed the line, feel free to lock. Feel free to dish out yellow/red cards if you feel they're warranted, too. I'll support your decision.

Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]



[ 11-01-2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

I only see one poster in particular who likes nothing better than saying they are right and everyone should be like him/her. IMO, this thread should be closed yet closing this post won't stop the next one. People will continue to post threads like this UNLESS we stop contributing to it. It only serves that poster's self-serving reasons to continue. I have read and read, and IMO this poster is insecure and I wonder if they really live what they preach. Sorry if I made anyone mad by my comments, but I felt a need to say the truth and from my perspective. Peace everyone. Namaste, I honor your spirit as I honor my own. [img]smile.gif[/img] ***takes a bow from the heart***