Dutch goverment resigns

[Alexander]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alexander:

Originally posted by MagiK: Originally posted by Alexander: [qb] I didn't accuse you of not having seen the world. I accused you of forcing your opinions and beliefs upon others, even though you claim you have seen the world. Most people learn that everyone has a right to choose their own lifestyle, unfortunately you did not, and you sound an awful lot like a typical arrogant American. Strange, I think, for some one as well-traveled as yourself. .

I won't argue that I may be arrogant, but you lie by implying that it is only americans who are arrogant. Arrogance is born out of confidence and surety, I am confident in my observations (my personal observations) and in my ability to see and assess situations as they exist around me. You accuse me of forcing my beliefs on others, to my knowledge not one single person today live in subjugation under my tyranical rule. Or do you mean tht by expressing my opinions and views that Im forcing them on others?? In that case no one is allowed to say anything for fear of "forcing their views" on them. I notice you are pretty picky about which things you respond to, no apology for the incorrect assumptions you made, no admitting that you erred. you seem pretty darn arrogant yourself [img]smile.gif[/img] however you mention my questioning of your sanity. I thought you a citizen of the USA, see here in this country that particular phrase is used commonly and is almost never taken as an implication of a persons actual sanity, but is ment as an expression of disbelief. Please forgive the use of a typical american idiom.

I never said that only Americans were arrogant. Once again you have shown me that you can't be bothered to read what I type. Why should I waste my time with someone who won't even respond to what I actually say??

Arrogance, as you say, is born out of confidence and surety. Americans are confident that this nation is the most powerful, and the idea gets into their heads that "might makes right". Just because we're the most powerful nation in the world doesn't make us the nation that has the best morals, you know.

Show me these supposed posts that I haven't responded to. Chances are I have and you just didn't notice, or I did not feel it was necessary for me to respond to them (perhaps because I would be repeating what someone else has said).

Also, show me these supposed "assumptions" that I have made about you. I'll tell you what I have assumed about you. NOTHING. I don't know anything about you, and I don't pretend to. You, however, have assumed a great deal about me, like that I think Milosevic is innocent, or that I would like to live in a Socialist country. If anyone should be apologizing here, it is you.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Originally posted by Grojlach: [qb] Thats an artificial cost Grojlach, in actuality after the person is convicted in theory (if we could get a decent justice system) it should cost roughly 57 cents to execute a prisoner, based on current ammo costs. Any cost over and above that are artificial costs induced by our current justice system. I AM aware that not everyo9ne convicted is guilty, but thankfully with DNA and other new testing, we are rapidly becoming able to at least clear the innocent. There are many tens of thousands of cases where the criminal is quilty without a bdoubt, has even admitted it and yet they suck up millions and millions of dollars in resources. Murders, rapists, and the like have no benefit to society and should be dealt with like the trash they are. You named DNA research. I have a feeling that will cost way more than the 57 cts you just mentioned that are needed for operating the electrical chair...

You're mixing apple and oranges here...we were discussing the cost of execution vs life imprisonment, the trials and the discovery will be the same for both. Execution = 57cents Life in prison=millions of $$$. Come on Grojlach you know you messed up, admit it. Jeez doesn't anyone here ever admit they are wrong?? (Yes I do admit when Im proven wrong and some of you have even had PM's with that admission so )[/QUOTE]The trials won't be the same for both, despite what you assume. I'm sure the lawyers, prosecuters, etc. are all more expensive when dealing with a death penalty case, plus you have the added likelihood of more appeals.

Plus, if we're going to have the death penalty, we need to keep people in prison for at least a few years - just in case it turns out they were innocent. If we shoot them in the back of the head right after the trial, well, the whole trial could've been a sham, and it wouldn't have mattered, because the person is dead.

You seem to want to cling to this fantasy that the justice system can be perfect and that DNA testing can solve everything. In reality, nothing can prove that every single criminal is 100% guilty, because we don't live in a perfect world. You will always have people who are wrongfully accused, and you will always have criminals who get off scot-free. As long as that happens, I cannot bring myself to defend the death penalty, because it will kill innocent people.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Spelca: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: You know...you criticize me for taking things to ridiculoous extremes...you seem pretty ready to do it your self though I will say one thing, if every person who committed a crime knew there was an high degree of likelyhood he would suffer extremes of pain and suffering and possibly or probably death..it would give them pause before comitting the criminal acts quite so lightly. I do like Singapores tradition of public caning...it appears to be EXTREMELY effective at preventing nuisance crimes.

There is not proof that the death penalty makes the crime rate go down (don't know how to express myself well here [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). It doesn't help, so I don't see why we should go down to their (murderers') level with executing people.[/QUOTE]Actually there is indirect evidence that crime decreases with the death penalty..with wide spread use there are fewer people to commit crimes consequently there can be fewer crimes. Seriously though, there isn''t any evidence that the death penalty doent't stop crimes either, because it is not implemented in a SERIOUS way anywhere in the USA, sure texas executes a very few people, but all in all it is a very rare bird who gets fried.[/QB][/QUOTE]And with good reason. Texas, Virginia, etc. all have higher murder rates than Massachusetts and other states that don't have the death penalty. (I can't imagine why...can you?) The USA also has a higher average murder rate than other countries which have banned the death penalty.

Gee, could this be a pure coincidence? Only if you're a right-winger.

Since all evidence points to the FACT that the death penalty doesn't deter anyone (do you honestly think murderers won't murder if they think they'll get the death penalty as opposed to life without parole?), why have it? At best, it's useless, and at worst, it's murder.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: quote: Originally posted by andrewas: [QB]In the UK we dont have the death penalty - and whats the result? Millions of pounds of taxpayers money (including mine) get spent keeping prisoners in prison - even when its not luxurious is expensive. QB]

Sure, lets kill every criminal in jail. I think the death penalty is more expensive then keeping someone imprissoned for a long time. Not to mention that only a small number of prisoners commited capital crimes such as murder. Or did you want to kill them all?[/QUOTE]You know...you criticize me for taking things to ridiculoous extremes...you seem pretty ready to do it your self though
[/QUOTE]Depends on what you call extreme. I think its just common sense that even criminals get treated as humans. Do you know how many inocents are executed each year?[/QUOTE]Nope and neither do you [img]smile.gif[/img] since by definition innocent people do not get put in jail. So all we know for sure is that SOME people who are innocent do get ptu in jail since the circumstancial evidence makes them look guilty. There is as far as I know no recent case of an innocent man being executed in this country.[/QUOTE]This one is sort of a no-brainer - if they're already dead, no one would bother to go check and see if they were innocent, would they?

Oh, and why don't you look over at Illinois, and what happened there? They had to suspend the death penalty there because they found that so many innocent people were on death row. Of course, if we had your system, it would be too late, because all those innocent people would've been shot in the back of the head long ago.

I woould also like to point out, that people who really do live a "normal" life and act like civilized people do not end up in situations where they get blamed for very heinous acts (if you dont want to be accused of being a drug dealer...don't act like one, don't hang with them, do not emulate them).

Oh, yeah, sure, all those INNOCENT people are actually guilty, right? What about, oh, Reuben Carter, the victim of racism, who, under your system, would've been shot in the head back in the 60s? Good lord, where is your sense of logic?

It may happen once in a while but not often. Holywood is full of innocent men going to prison and being vindicated...that isn't the real world though.

Then "the real world" must be some right-winger fantasy land you live in, because I can easily whip up a long list of innocent people who have either been given the death sentence or were on death row (or had life imprisonment and were released). All you have to do is ask for it. In fact, I dare you to ask for such a list. Or are you afraid that there might actually be a lot of people who were wrongfully imprisoned?

Do innocent people get falsely accused, you bet. We need to fix the trial and investigative portions of our justice system, so that we make sure the right people are being caught.

Nothing is perfect. Can't you get it through your head that the justice system will NEVER be perfect? Innocent people will always be put in jail, no matter how much DNA testing there is. It's easy for you to sit there in YOUR "real world" and say "we can fix it", but in everyone else's real world, we can't make it 100% foolproof and accurate. To think otherwise is totally naive.

[norompanlasolas]

id chip in but id hate to ruin this perfectly good alexander vs magik deathmatch... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Alexander]

Oh, please, feel free, without extra people it will become rather tedious.

Originally posted by Grand-Ranger: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: !

I'll second that. Live would be a whole lot simpler.[/QUOTE]Did you know that bunnies in the REAL world have a pretty vicious nature? that males eat their young? and are totaly unfaithful to their spouses?[/QUOTE]Well, how many animals are faithful to there spouse? There are a few who have only 1 mate for an entire life time, Artic Foxes, Doves ( I think) a few others.

But I think most of dont really 'stay faithful' to there spouse.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Hehehe I forgot to put the smileys in [img]smile.gif[/img] While accurate, it was ment as a joke [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Spelca: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: (...) Enforce the laws, make the punishments HARSH, again I will state my personal feeling that petty criminals and thugs be subject to public caning, to take place in their neighborhoods..I guarentee the petty crime will diminish rapidly, and behind that harsh cruel conditions in the prisons will endsure people are AFRAID of going to jail. Punishments NEED to be harsh and decisive if they are going to work. (...)

Hey, let's bring back public hangings too. That would really help against crime, wouldn't it? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]Actually hangings were quite the fashionable thing, personally I don't really care as long as it is cheap, easy and effective...I do not advocate long drawn out execution, I believe in putting them down like any other rabid animal...quick and painless. I wish people paid more attention to the victims and less to the culprits.

Originally posted by Spelca: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: quote: Originally posted by Katherine: ... . . . [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] I think bunnies should take over the world. [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] . . . . [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] . . . . . . . [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] ................................. [img]graemlins/bunny.gif[/img] !

I'll second that. Live would be a whole lot simpler.[/QUOTE]Did you know that bunnies in the REAL world have a pretty vicious nature? that males eat their young? and are totaly unfaithful to their spouses?[/QUOTE]Ooh, bunnies aren't much better than us then. We're vicious, we kill other people and we are unfaithful to our spouses. [/QUOTE]Actually I would put their behaviour as better than ours, since they are acting out of instinct and natural laws, we however are supposed to have a somewhat more reasoned approach....note..I said SUPPOSED to have.

Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Alexander: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Originally posted by Rikard_OHF: [qb] . If you talk about One persons We have an American Fugitive in the netherlands his asylum application got accepoted bcause in the US he's not sure of his life And the reason? He has different political views Nothing more nothing less he never did anything dangerous and sayd nothing worse then i have I think you have been misinformed on this, we do nOT arrest people for their opinions and to say this guy had to flee just because he disagreed with the government is definately not telling the whole story. I myself frequently criticize the government, I unlike Alexander realize the gun laws in this country are not LAX, it is the enforcement of those laws that is lax, and I frequently protest, complain and in other ways let my representative know what I think about the current policies, Ive never once feard being arrested just because I differed with the local, state or federal governments.

We could have an excellent system like in the UK, where there are approximately 10-20 firearm deaths each year.
Or, we could continue on our present path and have some insanely high number in the 5-6 digit range just to Charlton Heston can be happy.

Of course, UK forbids the use of firearms at all...[/QUOTE]And not to knock the UK but look at its global standing among nations, it is just another medium sized country. So should we do everything the way they do it?

You don't like firearm deaths?? Fine, then enforce the laws that already exist, did you know that it has been illegal to use a firearm to comit murder for more than a century...so why do we need 347 (and counting) new laws to make it more illegal? Do you think that criminals will quit getting firearms if you make them all illegal..oh...wait..it is already illegal for a felon to posses one...hmmm seems to me that the problem lays in law ENFORCEMENT and not in what laws exist. Making something illegal does not make it go away, just look at drugs, just look at prohibition..banning things does not fix the problem. Enforce the laws, make the punishments HARSH, again I will state my personal feeling that petty criminals and thugs be subject to public caning, to take place in their neighborhoods..I guarentee the petty crime will diminish rapidly, and behind that harsh cruel conditions in the prisons will endsure people are AFRAID of going to jail. Punishments NEED to be harsh and decisive if they are going to work. I cite Singapore and its very clean and safe city streets. Only problem there is the people have NO freedom Brittain has MORE than it's fair share of problems, adopting their methods is not going to fix our country.[/QUOTE]Just another medium-sized country? What planet do you live on? The UK is among the most powerful nations in the world. It is the USA's closest and most powerful ally. Just because the British Empire no longer exists does not make the UK a "medium-sized country" by any stretch of the imagination.

Obviously, in your travels, you have never been to the UK, otherwise you'd know what you're talking about.

Second, why do some people feel it is necessary to own assault rifles and machine guns? The mentality of the right-wingers and the NRA is that if we take away assault rifles, we'll take away everything. When will these people wake up and learn that assault rifles = more gun deaths? Like it or not, anyone who owns a gun is statistically much more likely to kill a family member or friend than an "intruder". Going by pure facts and statistics, guns probably should've been banned long ago, but then, there is that small but powerful group of right-winger wackos in this country who NEED their guns for some unfathomable reason.

If you want harsh punishments and caning in the streets, fine. Go move to Singapore (where, NOT by coincidence, there is no freedom). But don't complain if you or a loved one is wrongly accused of jaywalking and beaten senseless.

Do we need to punish everyone for every little infraction of the law, no matter how trivial? What about drug users? Many have been brought back from the brink and been saved from drug addiction, should those people have been punished instead?[/QUOTE]Thanks for reading all kindsof things I never said into that post. At this point I see its useless to try and discuss anything with you, since you refuse address what was actually said.

Thanks for the attemtp at a useful discussion, I don't mind trying to exchange views on things, but I would prefer to at least do it with more give and take and less twisting meanings and baseless nonesense. If you really believe that I have formed my opinions out of ignorance or barbarism thats your perogative. I personally think it is far more barbaric to allow criminals to threaten innocents and society as a whole.

Many of you HATE the very core of things that I believe in and for that Im sorry. You say Im a barbarian and ignorant and many other less kind things. All I can say is that if you really believe that, well I hope you get to live in a world of your own making...I have seen what kind of environment ensues from the "kinder, gentler" philosophies, and I prefer the more harsh but fair environs I provide for my children and my family. It may be that my philosphy is outdated, but it is one that has allowed us to survive as a civilization so far. It is only in the later half of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries that things have really gone to hell...lets re-examine the situation in a hundred years shall we?

Good bye and good luck!