Question about Evolution/Creationism etc.

[K T Ong]

Do you really believe that, given enough time, a tornado will eventually assemble all those bits and pieces of a 747 jetliner into a complete jetliner?

For that matter, do you think conditions have remained favorable long enough on earth for the enzymes to form through the agency of chance alone? (Long enough being perhaps a few billion times a few billion years -- no, even that is probably not enough.)

[ 04-23-2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by K T Ong: . Scientists have calculated the odds against the likelihood that all the 2,000 or so enzymes used by living organisms over the earth could have been assembled purely from the random combinations of amino acids. The odds are so enormous they would span tens of thousands of digits if written out in longhand.

This a bit like the monkey/typewriter/Shakespeare argument. There is a missing unknown in your caculations. Time. If time is infinite it was only a matter of time before the 2,000 enzymes came together.[/QUOTE]But Donut, time is always moving. With what we are talking about the odds remain the same at any given moment. At any given time the odds of such a feat occurring are the same. Theoretical possibility is just that. Theoretical.

[ 04-23-2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Wow Mike. You're such an optimist. I wish I had your joy and love for fellow humans. Do you really hate yourself that much? When you hate the race you also hate yourself. We are in internal conflict as much as external, and are cable of creating beauty, or destroying. It is up to us to choose at each given moment whether to be positive or negative. By totally dissing our lives as you are, you are being that which you are criticising - destroying hope or self respect in someone that reads or agrees with your post. Destroying love in yourself is just as bad.

That said, I will answer your points out of concern for your mindset, not because I need to feel better. I love myself. I love my God, and I have much love for my many human companions. I choose to look at the beauty in people, singularly and en-masse.

Originally posted by Sir Michael: More skilled? How about less specialized? Jack-of-all-trades and master of none? Weaker

Is a jack of all trades really weaker? You gave no examples where this would be the case. This is a foundationless argument. One can in fact be a master-of-all-trades if compared to those of inferior skill or application. The 'jack of all' is relative to other humans with the same time to hone skill, not to the animal kingdom. There are individual specialists within humanity. It is the variety of these collectively that gives the race it's adaptability. Our potential is enormous. As it is we allegedly use only a fraction of our mental potential.

Humans can't live in the South Pole, so are penguins and seals better than we are?

We can and do live in the polar regions. There are humans living and working in Antarctica as we speak. Humans have lived in the northern polar regions for thousands of years.

We can't live in the ocean, so are fish and ocean mammals better than we are?

We can live OFF the ocean, can travel through it, and are the most feared hunters of the sea.
I would also put forth that humans living in submarines count as humans living in the sea.

We can't live in volcanic lava flows like some bacteria, so are they better than we are?

We can and do live on volcanic lava, just not all of a lava's manefestations. Namely the hot melting variety. Is not lava that has cooled and hardened the same substance? Not everywhere of the planet can be existed in/on all the time. Yet volcanic lava has resulted in human life throughout the pacific ocean for a start.

We can live in some places, like the base in the South Pole, but we need a lot of help...we are not naturally suited for those environments, unlike the animals who live there. Weaker

I disagree. The natural benefit humans have is the intellect to use tools. This is not unatural. Birds make nests. Beavers make dams. Moles make tunnels under ground. All of these are natural skills involving changing their environment to survive. I would argue that a south pole cabin is an elaborate "nest" and is as part of nature as a beaversdam.

Superior in conflict situation??? Mastered the planet??? Yeah, all of the wars in the last century and this one indicate a real advanced species. When was the last time you saw animals wiping themselves out on that scale? And the fact that we have DESTROYED the planet doesn't bother you? An an environmental scientist, let me tell you, that the damage done to the Earth by the human species only convinces me that we are inferior, no superior as you assert. The fact that we do have the intelligence to live in harmony with nature and protect the environment and use our resources wisely and control our birth rates, and we actively choose not to do so, is what worries me. Ultimately, I think we are a brutal, savage, primitive race that is vastly inferior to the animals. Not better, Yorick, WORSE.

HAVE WE DESTROYED THE PLANET OR WIPED OURSELF OUT MIKE?

No. The story is not finished. The tale not told. The planet is still incredibly beautiful, and we are growing in number, health and longevity. Far from wiping each other out.

I'm an hour out from the centre of one of the largest cities in the world, and I'm surrounded by trees and plants. This whole area fror miles around is surrounded by nature. The planet is far from being 'ruined' desecrated or destroyed.

I'm an environmentalist. What concerns me is the future if we had continued down a nature abusing path unabated. Things have and continue to change for the better. Bear in mind also, that humans have lived for millenia in harmony with nature. In Australia for example, the Aboriginie lived for thousands and thousands of years in relative balance. The introduction of the dingo devastated wildlife, but is not the dingo still part of life?

For every conglomerate chief raping the planet, there is a child learning how to recycle. What would you prefer? A conglomerate recycling and a child learning how to rape the planet? I know what future I prefer....

Regarding war, people die. War is just one of the ways we can die. Disease, accident. That life continues at all is a miracle. Yet, as I said, we grow in number.

The most devastating things to have decimated humanity have been illnesses. The Black plague halved Europes population. In South America, over a hundred year period Spanish introduced diseases reduced the population of the native Americans from 27 million to 4 million! Yet they survived. We survive.

The story unfolds and is far from over. Working for a goal with a positive mindset is energising. Pessimism is disempowering.

Conflict is inevitable. Water conflicts with earth, fighting for the same space. The result is sand. Stones.
Ants fight each other. Lion prides fight each other, or fight hyenas for food and space. Snakes fight each other for mating rite rights. The 'peaceful' Dolphin fights sharks, and hunt other fish for food.

Thus when we, as the planets dominant, superior lifeform fight each other, the conflict increases in scale. Is this not still natural? Grevious yes. Horrific yes. But unatural?

You are choosing to look at the negativity of the race, and not look at the beauty of a humans meal preperation, humming of a melody, a hug or rythmic tapping on a steering wheel. All moments of creation and positivity.

I see so much positiveity about the race.

[ 04-23-2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: The Bible "speaks" of the Circit (circle) of the Earth, It also "speaks" of how the Earth hangs on nothing, in Job. This was writen at a time when the rest of the world, science and all thought the earth was on the backs of turtles, Atlas, Elephants, or some other object. But our science has proven that the Bible was right about what the Earth hung on... Nothing.

There we go. Who says the bible doesn't contain scientific data?

Originally posted by Sir Michael: Yeah, all of the wars in the last century and this one indicate a real advanced species. When was the last time you saw animals wiping themselves out on that scale? And the fact that we have DESTROYED the planet doesn't bother you? An an environmental scientist, let me tell you, that the damage done to the Earth by the human species only convinces me that we are inferior, no superior as you assert. The fact that we do have the intelligence to live in harmony with nature and protect the environment and use our resources wisely and control our birth rates, and we actively choose not to do so, is what worries me. Ultimately, I think we are a brutal, savage, primitive race that is vastly inferior to the animals. Not better, Yorick, WORSE.

No that I want to pick a fight but I have to disagree with your numbers here.

Predators routinely eat their prey and when they have almost wiped out their prey, the number of predators decrease (through old age and starvation) this allows the prey to recover and so the cycle goes.
Animals are not some idylic benevolent creatures who live in harmony...nature is quick and cold and cruel, it is survival of the fitest where the strong survive and there is no quarter.

We have not destroyed the world, as a matter of fact I have seen quite a large percentageof it and it looks pretty darned nice in most places.

A lot of the "damages" you complain about were done in ignorance and out of economic necessity, we at least as a species have with time learned to try and undo damages done and have worked diligently to increase the efficiency and cleanliness of our methods. Yes in the third world they are still pretty much the "ravagers" but in the west great strides have been made to correct the errors of our ignorance. If you are an ecological scientist then you should be well aware of the strides made and not skew the facts to promote your individual point of view.

And lastly! Nearly every single western society has its population growth undercontrol and quite a few are actually experiencing alarming decreases or negative growth. The main areas where population growth is booming is in the east, where there is little value placed on individual life and little progress has been made in the socio/political climates.

Well anyway, I just thought you might want to examine your comments and maybe rethink your position...nothing I have said here is hard to verify (especially the population part). Hatred of your own species doesnt really accomplish much and it does throw your whole argument into the "highly debatable" catagory.

[Yorick]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

Originally posted by Sir Michael: [qb] Well anyway, I just thought you might want to examine your comments and maybe rethink your position...Hatred of your own species doesnt really accomplish much and it does throw your whole argument into the "highly debatable" catagory.

Not to mention a solutionless position. What's the solution? Mass suicide? Total genocide? Hardly invokes trust.

I agree with your post MagiK.

Originally posted by Azred: Why spend all this energy worrying about where we came from biologically? Only our historical/social beginnings are important, so that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated. If only this energy could be directed to an investigation of where we are going.... The real importance of DNA research should be gene therapy and tissue cloning (momentary off-topic aside: we might ban cloning here in the US, but someday someone somewhere will clone a human; if we are not at the forefront of that research than that someone will be) not an investigation of general genome "families" or tracing some common, shared ancestor.... There is no religion in the entire history of the world for which the central focus is how the world was made (those are allegories only); rather, the foci are on acting in a moral manner, salvation, and/or contemplation of the world as it is/should be. We'll ignore any social reasons for having a common religion for now because that is not important at this time. We are here. We are now. What more is there?

Actually Religions ariseing as part of our belief engine system, Magical thinking (like religion) can actually help us to reduce uncertainty in uncertain places & times.
They were simply caused at first by a combination of our pattern seeking & magical thinking behaviour. It has also been noted that prayer, relgion and suchforth can actually have postive health benefits and sometimes can be an aid to mental health.
Later some people (like machiavelli) realised that you could use a relgion to control people and to justify things in the name of a "Higher power", "Greater good" or whatever. Thus we have things like the inquisition, Crusades and such.
Religion has evolved somewhat into a complex ideological construct, but still essentially arises from our belief engine system.

[ 04-23-2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

There was a study done a couple of years ago that I read about....says that people who are devout in their religion...ie. they attend regular services and lived by a moral code, tend to live an average of 10 years longer than people who profess no faith whatsoever. I dont recall the source and really make no claim to it's integrity but it is something I thought interesting enough to remember.

[Sir Michael]

First of all, Yorick, it is "Sir Michael," not "Mike." I hate that...it makes me sound like a kid, and its also not my handle here.

Since it seems like we want to get personal with this issue, I could criticize you and others about your naive optimism. And I prefer "realist" over "pessimist." If science teaches me anything, it is that humanity does not have all the answers, and not all problems can be solved. No, I don't hate the human race...I just don't share the arrogance which other humans seem to have. I can see the problems...like the fact that over 30% of the topsoil is gone from U.S. fields, and we are the top food producing nation in the world. Most of the fresh water in the underground aquifers is gone, so farmers are having a harder and harder time irrigating their fields. I love it here in the dry southwest, where people insist on having green lawns and trees, and yet we face the perpetual threat of water shortages (they have rationed water already in Northern Nevada). Most of the traditional fisheries are tapped out. The Greenhouse effect and global warming are realities, with over 1000x the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere now than there was 100 years ago. The rain forests are being destroyed at the rate of hundreds of acres per day. Animal, plant and insect species are becoming extinct at an alarming rate (something like 5 a day). Just last March we had a huge dust cloud blanket Las Vegas and make life miserable for a week or so--turns out it was from Mongolia, where overgazing had wiped out the grasses that kept the fertile topsoil from blowing away. Those people are having a harder and harder time feeding themselves now.

Scientists have told us that the sustainable population of the Earth is about 10 billion people. At 7 Billion now, and increasing exponentially, we don't have much time to do anything. Yes, many Western nations are declining in population, but many more are not. In the US, all you have to do is look in the SW and South of the border, to find a population of Roman Catholics that do not believe in birth control, and which are gradually moving back into the US, much like the Chinese are moving in to Eastern Russia. The Mormons also have very large families, and so traditionally have African-Americans. India has the largest population now, and shows no sign of stopping. China was forced to do something about the problem, and I applaud them for at least trying.

You can look out at Central Park, your little oasis in a sea of concrete, and feel good, and I can go to Yosemite or any of the other national parks and feel good, but I fear that soon they will be all that is left of nature in the world.

Your and my views are colored by the fact that we are pampered and spoiled and live fat, dumb and happy in the richest nation in the world, where we have 5% of the population but suck up 25% of the resources. I wonder how the people feel in Afghanistan, or Russia (where the death rate actually exceeds the birth rate, and there is widespread drug addiction, disease, crime and economic chaos)? Or any of the other third world "have-not" nations? It doesn't bother you that when resources run out and we are the only ones left with food, fuel, etc., in a rapidly shrinking world that we may become targets? And do these people care more about the environment, or just day-to-day survival?

BTW, Galileo's whole deal that got him into trouble (one of the things anyway) was NOT that the earth was round, it was that he tried to debunk the long-held church belief that the Earth is the center of the Universe, and that all of the planets and stars revolved around us. Typical human arrogance, I suppose.

Look, this is all depressing, and people like you will not see it or understand it, until things get much worse (or the end comes). I've read that right now we have the highest standard of living in the US that we will ever have...enjoy the good times while they last.

In retrospect, it was probably a mistake to debate evolution in this forum. In the first place, none of us are going to change anyone's beliefs, and in the second, I am not even a biologist, much less an evolutionary one...all I know is what I've read on the subject. And, much like you believe in God, I have no trouble believing in probability theory, that anything can happen, at any given time, including the formation of life from nothing, and of the interaction of all of the particles in the universe, with or without a guiding hand.

At least I have an open mind, and am not always convinced that I am right.

Sir Michael, I would suggest that you take a drive accross the country coast to coast. It seriously sounds like you have no concept of just how big this country is and just how little of it is actualy urbanized. It only takes a drive of an hour or two at the most from any city in the US to get to rural countryside. I've driven from DC to San Diego and from San Diego to Seattle and from Bangor Maine to Pensacola Florida (not all on the same trip) and I have observed vast stretches of quite peaceful wilderness that have nothing to do at all with National Parks. (by the way I highly reccomend driving from Denver to Las Vegas over the mountains...WOW!)

Im also really curious how a dust cloud from Mongolia reached Nevada and didn't seem to bother any of the intervening terrain between the two areas. And was this last week? I have two friends here who were in Las Vegas all week from the 13th of April untill the 21st (work conference held by EMC) no one in Las Vegas was aware of the dust storm you talked about.

Seriously guy, you are so wrapped up in negatives that you don't seem to see any of the good. ahhh well. By the way, Yorick calling you Mike really wasn't as big a deal you made it into. It seemed to me to be just trying to be a bit more personable not derogatory. Perspective is a powerful tool I guess.