Looks like another shift to the right!

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by MagiK: Don't know what to say Cerek..I distinctly remember the passage...and Im fairly sure it was old testement.....

It certainly sounds like something that would be in the O.T. My search referenced a Revised Edition Bible. You may want to try a search for the Catholic Bible and see if you can find it there. Let us know if you find it. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Will have to dig the Bibles and concordia out of the boxes in Mysti's basement. Maybe tonight I will have time...altho it is the night for the FINAL episode of Buffy...{sniff}...

[Cerek the Barbaric]

A second search still didn't produce the passage you mentioned, so I went to another source I've used in the past - Christian Answers Network.

Here was the "answer" I found regarding "self-gratification".

Is it wrong?

Well according to that then there is no specific charge against self gratification in the bible and my memory may indeed have been from some other source. I read the reasoning in your article, and found the explanation of why it is wrong to be ...well honestly absurd and obviously "opinion". So in good concience I can say to TL...

Whak-a-way

dude [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] Seriously Cerek...
I found the language and reasoning of that article to really be....lame. It's hard for me to put into cogent words.

Edit: No offense ment to you or your beliefs...

[ 05-20-2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by MagiK: Seriously Cerek... I found the language and reasoning of that article to really be....lame. It's hard for me to put into cogent words. Edit: No offense ment to you or your beliefs...

None taken. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-20-2003, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

Cerek, it just bothers me that I cannot really explain why I disliked the piece....this is gonna make me have to do some introspection...I dislike not understanding why I dislike something.

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Cerek, it was someone else who mentioned that homosexuals were prefer it NOT be genetic.

My apologies, Timber. I was in a hurry and the posts had started to run together.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I think as with all things it's a combination of nature/nurture.

That is exactly the phrase I was trying {unsuccessfully} to think of. I do believe it is "outside factors" that contribute to homosexual desires. But I also believe the person may be completely unaware of some of these factors and - therefore - feel they were "born gay".

An illustrative example was a story I saw on TV many years ago investigating claims of reincarnation made by people. One lady said she KNEW she had lived as a farmwoman in Ireland many years before because she could vividly recall details of the farm, the surrounding land, and even mentioned specific of the buildings in the closest town - yet she had NEVER BEEN to Ireland in her entire life. What she did not remember was that her great-grandmother was actually the "farmwoman" from her previous life. Her great-granny had often kept her when she was an infant, and would tell her stories of the "old country" as she gently rocked her. The lady could remember very specific details from these stories - but never remebered hearing any of them from her great-grandmother (who died while she was still very young).

What does that have to do with the "nature/nurture" effect on homosexuality?? I believe many of these outside factors come into play long before the person is consciously aware of them...therefore, it may feel like they've been gay all their lives. That's my theory, anyway.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Out of curiosity, do you recall what places the "abominable" nature of gay relations is talked about in the bible?? I've been curious about this for a while. The way I see it, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were not sodomy per se, but rather over-indulgence of all sorts of hedonism. I mean, there is little doubt that God/Mother Nature gave us inlets and outlets, but I do not recall the bible being specific as to gay sex. I do recall that it says precious little about premarital sex, other than the fact that under the law the man must offer to marry the woman (but may refuse if the dowry is too small). That list I found in a book of bible lists once, but that was in like 1991, so the list of mentionings of homosexuality were not part of the book.

One reason your search may have come up empty is that the word "homosexuality" is NOT used in the Bible. The act is described, but this terminology came many years after even the King James Version. Here are some of the relevant passages -

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, you are correct that it was about all manner of excessive sexual hedonism...but homosexuality was rampant. When God sent two angels {in human form} to visit Lot and judge Sodom and Gomorrah, all the men of the city came to his house demanding that Lot turn these men out to them. Lot even offers his two virgin daughters to the crowd to appease their lust, but they are not interested in that compromise. Here are the relevant verses for this incident -

Genesis 19
[1] And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
[2] And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
[3] And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
[4] But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
[5] And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
[6] And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
[7] And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
[8] Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
[9] And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
[10] But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
[11] And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
[12] And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
[13] For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

As you can see, the Bible does take a very strong stance against homosexuality. Of course, it also takes a very strong stance against adultery too. God even took time to write that one in stone, but unfortunately, it doesn't carry the same "stigma" as homosexuality does in our society. [/QUOTE]Here is another.

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: The law has been challneged and Senator Santorum said that if homosexuality is allowed, then all laws regarding bigamy, polygamy, bestiality, and child molestation might as well be repealed also. Needless to say, he received much criticism for these remarks (rightly so).

Quite rightly so. Polygamy/bigamy are not about pairing with another for life, they are about pairing more than once for life. This is a different issue than who you pair with, it is rather the number of people you pair with. On this specific issue, the SUpreme COurt, in the mormon cases, held it "so repugnant to human decency..."

NOw, personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Some religions make it the DUTY of a man to pair with more wives IF HE CAN SUPPORT MORE WIVES AND CHILDREN. It's about encouraging society to make maximum use of those with economic blessings. The theory is that 5 wives with one billionaire are better off than 1 married to a billionaire and 4 married to us plebes. While this may be a very different way of looking at life, it is not wholly repugnant, in my view.

However, the law is distinct and specific. I had to research this issue for the VT legislative counsel to make sure the civil union law would not open up the possibility of bigamy and polygamy. It doesn't.

Beastiality is animal abuse. An animal cannot possible consent, so it is rape no matter how you view it. Comparing consensual acts of adult humans to beastiality shows extreme ignorance and, in my view, simple begs, "someone, please shove a (s)ock in my mouth."

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: A second search still didn't produce the passage you mentioned, so I went to another source I've used in the past - Christian Answers Network. Here was the "answer" I found regarding "self-gratification". Is it wrong?

Well, I don't know if it's a correct interpretation or not. Of course, like the constitution the Bible should be taken to mean different things at different times. In my mind, for instance, you can satisfy "Be fruitful and multiply" by marrying your gay lover, making gobs of money, and using it to adopt 6 orphans who all go to medical school and have families of their own.

But, if you can't have sex out of marriage, and you can't masturbate, it sounds like the god I've grown to know -- who likes to see you suffer. Same god Job knew -- who beat the living s**t out of his most faithful sevant ON A BET. Oh well, if masturbation keeps you out of heaven, I don't want to be there anyway.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: But, if you can't have sex out of marriage, and you can't masturbate, it sounds like the god I've grown to know -- who likes to see you suffer. Same god Job knew -- who beat the living s**t out of his most faithful sevant ON A BET. Oh well, if masturbation keeps you out of heaven, I don't want to be there anyway.

Just keep in mind that God repayed Job ten-fold for everything he had lost as a reward for his faithfulness. [img]smile.gif[/img]