Of BG2 and Conceptions.... ToB Spoilers.

[Alson]

Beware. Rant en masse ahead.

Recently, i've read (and participated in) some threads who stimulated my grey cells. This post is supposed to put order into my thoughts about various myths concerning BG2, and a few of my personal concpetions. It serves no real informative purpose. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Repsonses and dissenting opinions are welcomed as always.

Conception: Grand Mastery. (assuming GM patch is installed)
I was once a great follower of Grand Mastery. The power of your weapon is multiplied by the number of attacks you have - and Grand Mastery adds an extra 1/2 attack! Huzzah. Having faith in the power of Grand Mastery, many of my power-focused games aimed for as many Grand Masters as possible. I changed my mind, though. With the advent of ToB, Grand Mastery losses its spark. Greater Whirlwind is really amazing, and makes all Attack per Round considerations obsolete. If you're worried about actually hitting the enemy, Critical Strike (in conjunction with Improved Haste, if needed) is for THAC0 what Greater Whirlwind is for ApR. Grand Mastery is still good, but not as it used to be.

Myth: Thief Needed.
Thieves are powerful. Use Any Item is a broken ability. However, they are nothing but convenience and roleplaying factor. All interesting doors/locks in the game can be bashed (a bad desinging choice on BioWare's part, in my opinion). Knock is merely a level 2 spell. Find Traps is merely a level 2 spell. Backstabbing packs much less punch with the advent of ToB. Sure, Imp Haste + Assassinate has potential. Unfortunately, most big bosses are immune. As for Use Any Item, I find that a F/M can already use the most powerful items. Spike Traps are leathel, though, and Time Traps are losta fun. I consider Traps to be Thieves' only boon - but, be frank - who killed more enemies in your game, the Ages-Wielding-Kensai or the Trap-Laying-Thief?

Myth: Cleric Needed.
This is an outrageous matter, IMO. Clerics get shafted in BG2. With 1 ApR, they are just not as good as fighters on the front lines. However, they also aren't worth much in the back rows - i would rather have one Sorcerer, even as a buffer, than two Clerics. Haste and Mass Invisibility trump most of the Clreic's Holy-But-Lossy stuff. Arcane summoning are also better. Sure, Chaotic Commands will save your skin facing Illithids and tossing Holy Smites is fun and all, but it's not nearly as useful as Breach and it's not nearly as powerful as, say, Project Image. Healing spells would have been crucial if BioWare's policy wasn't something like "Why on earth shouldn't that Goblin carry an X of Regeneration and ~2 Greater Healing Potions?!"...
A Cleric specializes in fighting The Undead. Poor choice. Between Pro-Undead scrolls, Daystar and the Improved Mace of Disruption, even a beginner can go on a vampire hunting fiesta without a Cleric. Finnaly, if one thought ToB would change things, well... it didn't. The Cleric's HLAs are lossy. A shame. Butterfingers would also like to point out that Clerics were robbed by not getting Avatar as a HLA.

Myth: Bards own.
Heh... Boy, am i going to get flamed for this.
I like Bards. I like them a lot. Playing the self assured, charming Kazanova is too much fun. [img]tongue.gif[/img] However, power-wise, Bards are just not as powerful as, say, their leading contester - the F/M. Yeah, I know a Blade can make himself invulnerable. Yeah, i know Enhanced Bard Songs rocks. Yeah, i know Mislead can sing as well. Yeah, i know songs stack. Why, i'm even familiar with the non-trivial tactic of "Defensive Spin + Free Action". And?! Maybe it's only my personal experience, but i just find that a Fighter (or a Paladin, or a Ranger, or a Monk, ...) will usually win the same battle, just faster (Human Time, which is important), and without having to go through all this trouble.

Myth: Druids sucks.
Well, they don't. I would even risk by saying they trump Clerics, big time.
The most frustrating enemies in the game tend to have the ability to cast spells. In these fights, the Druid shines - Insect Plague is, as we all know, the spellcaster's bane. Call Woodland Beings is a wonderful spell to have against Humanoids, and Fire Elementals are truly an amazing summon. Call Lightning will wreak havoc in outdoor battles, and Nature's Beauty is just... ba-roken! No save Blindness is too much for enemies to handle.
Druids might be a little weak on the equipment side, but as long as they stay in the rear, with Ironskins to cover their, erm, ash , they are safe. ToB gave them the cutting edge over Clerics in the form of Elemental Princes - which will wipe the floor with the Cleric's Deva.

Myth: Monks are Demigods.
Another controversial issue. Speed, Damage, Resistances, Immunities, Attacks... on first glance, it seems like the Monk has it all. Well, it's not that clear. It's an amazing class, but since BG2 is so equipment centric, it will lose to a well equipped fighter. Fury trumps Stunning Blow, and every Vorpal weapon trumps Quivering Palm. I would much rather have a fighter armed with Ages and 3 ApR rather than a Monk with 4.5 fists attacks. The Monk's immunities are excellent, but immunity to Haste really cripples him in comparison to a fighter. A fighter will be able to enjoy the wonderful combo of Critical Strike + Improved Haste. For a Monk, Greater Whirlwind is the only option.
Eventually, though, it all depends whether you buff heavily or not. If you do, the Monk's MR will be lost "in the noise", and you're better of with a fighter. If you don't, the Monk can serve as an excellent Magic Shield for you.

Conception: Items Dominate BG2.
As a result of AD&D rules system, saving throws, resistances and immunities rule. Really. This leads to an, in my opinion, unfortunate outcome in BG2. The game is equipment centric, instead of being character centric. Items which provide immense bonuses are found everywhere. Even the minor quests will reward you in not-so-shabby magical items (Ilbartha, anyone?). Items like Ages, Fury and Magi will turn the tide (if not break the game) in your favor. This is more of a personal opinion matter, but i wish BG2 would be more character centric.

Conception: Regeneration and Bad AI.
Regeneration is amazingly strong. You thought so the first time you fought Greater Werewolves. You knew it when you fought Kuroisan, Improved Bodhi and Improved Tor'Gal. As always, the player can put everything the computer uses to much greater use, especially with the enemy AI's bad targeting and the fact that Improved Haste doubles the rate. As i already mentioned earlier, Regeneration also obviates any need for a healer in the party (which means one more fighter type or a arcane spellcaster to wreak carnage ).

Conception: Archery.
There are many discussion on the best Bow, Short Bows vs. Long Bows, Tuigan vs. Strongarm, etc. I would like to spotlight Crossbows, though. The Crossbows suffered from having low rate of fire in SoA, but compensated by having the best ammunition (Kuo Toa & Biting bolts trump all arrows). With the advent of Greater Whirlwind, Crossbows outdo Bows in every aspect. While ToB's Bows (both Short and Long) are actually worse than the SoA ones, the new Crossbow in ToB is utterly amazing. An Archer wielding it, supplemented by nice bolts (the effects will stack) is a devillish force.

Another note about the whole Archery issue - Slings with magical Bullets, Throwing Daggers and Throwing Axes all add STR Bonus to damage. Ironically enough, Bows are actually the worse ranged weapon in the end.

Conception: Magic vs. Melee.
Melee owns BG2. Sorry. Although i love Magic so much better, and i'm one of those who are sure that "a well prepared Mage can take on anything", BioWare seemed to decide that each above-Goblin-level monster should have 75% MR and 3 save vs. spells, with no justification whatsoever. This is just plain stupid. Either you follow the D&D rules about MR and Saves, or you tone down all the uber items which makes melee so good. If the power of equipment was toned down, Magic would have been more useful, and the game would have been more character centric.

[ 01-28-2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Baros]

Amen.

I think the one thing that proves what you've said is that we all spend so much time soloing - no characters are *needed* and items rule (one ring to rule them all..?). I've said it before, there are just waay too many powerful items/weapons - that I believe is merely an indication of the broken power level of the game.

[Xen]

Well i can agree.if you look the game about equipment:
-Most of the equipment is used for Warrior(Fighter,Paladin,Ranger)
-There should be much more equipment lying around for mages,Thiefs...

If you look Mages/Sorcerers...they are most powerful class(eventully) and what equipment is made for them:
-Ring Of Gaxx
-Robe Of Vecna
-Amulet Of Power
-The Staff Of The Magi....

The best thing to do is too use IEEP and make your own items.(Not Overpowerd)

This IMO

Xen

[Butterfingers]

**Spews flames**

Ok, small joke aside, I agree for the most part.

Clerics simply do not translate well into Baldur's Gate as a CRPG, but, they can still be incredibly powerful. And yes, after much thinking, I can see why Avatar was not added. All through out ToB, the Cleric could end any fight in TSoL. (Thirty Seconds or Less) That would have taken out the challenge, no doubt about that. To give you an idea of what real power is, let me quote you something from some info I gave to Six.

A Storm Elemental is unique to Talos. They combine air, ice, fire, lightning, acid, and magical damage. And I think something else, can't quite remember what, sorry. They are immune to all forms of elemental damage, 50% resistant to physical damage, and, can only be struck by weapons of +4 or greater. They can become ethereal at will, meaning only +6 weapons with ethereal enchantments can hit them. (Only a few times a day) They have a special attack called Stormbolt. Does 4d4 cold damage, 4d4 fire damage, 4d4 lightning damage, 4d4 acid damage, and 4d4 magical damage. I know there is something else, but, for the life of me I can't think of what it is. This attack pierces all resistances (Sets them to zero) and has no save. Victims hit by the bolt are silenced, blinded, and struck deaf as well. Also, as befitting a servant of the Stormlord, they have a permanate Cloak of Fear.

End quote. As you can see, the sheer amount of cheese that could be produced here is mind boggling. I am still trying to scrap my memory for something called Storm of Swords which is something that an Avatar of Helm gets. Just imagine if it started raining +6 Holy Avenger Vorpal Swords.

As for Bards, well, I am biased here. I love Bards. With a Bard, you only get so much. You can't dual. You are forced to become a good player and learn to work with what you have, or, you suck toe. The same with Monks as I have stated in another post. Playing as a Bard forces you to use every ounce of potential that you have. And it makes you feel good when you manage to do so. As for comparing a Bard to a Fighter/Mage or a Mage/Thief, that is not really a fair deal, as Bards are a class all their own. They play differently. Anybody who tries to play them, say, as a Fighter/Mage, are bound to run into problems at some point. Bards are about self preservation. (Speaking from a role playing sense) And even in BG this translates well. A Bard has countless tools at his or her disposal to save their own skin, and, possibly their party as well.

And it comes down to play styles. I enjoy defensive playing. So, by the very sense of the idea, I gravitate to classes like the Bard, the Cleric, the Druid, and the Monk. Oh, don't get me wrong, I love a good offense now and then, but, my play style is very cautious and defensive. I do stupid silly things like take very short walks with my party all through out a whole map to actually make sure they stay in formation. I don't scroll through the map and click the other side and send the party walking very often.

Because of this, I can do things like take on dragons with a level 9 to 11 party, safely, for the most part, with out employing cheese like Cloudkill from off screen or traps. I don't even need to use Skull Traps and Spook to get the job done. (Although that is a fun method.) The first thing I do now usually is go for Firkragg so I can get the Red Dragon Scale Armor for my tank so my spell slingers can cast Fireballs and Sunfires with out worrying about cooking somebody to badly.

And that brings me to your point about items. Yes, just like Diablo, Baldur's Gate is all about the items.

That's where knowing and following the rules comes in, enabling restrictions that the game designers left out. For the sake of character purity.

If I play a Cavalier, I would never use the Holy Avenger. A Cavalier is required to ALWAYS use a shield. Or if I play an Undead Hunter Paladin, blunt weapons only as the rules demanded (They have the same restrictions as Clerics) unless of course you find a bladed weapon with specific undead slaying abilities, like Daystar or Azuredge. The thing is though, you can't start putting stars into these weapon styles until you actually find them. Might seem stupid, but, doing this actually makes the game fun.

Also, since we are ranting, I am going to talk about character purity.

I am going to talk about the Kensai in particular.

The Kensai has no business being translated into this game. None what so ever. Gorion was not a Sword Saint. Gorion carried no weapon other then a whimpy dagger. This IRKS me.

A Kensai gets his blade (Or weapon) from his family. It might be magical, it might not. A Kensai works just like a Monk. Their weapon gains enchantment as they go up in levels. And he will never use any weapon but THAT weapon. He takes vows. He makes promises. Starting off in Jon's Funhouse, a real Kensai would be tearing the place apart with his bare hands until he found his family's blade. A Kensai takes his vows very seriously, to LIVE BY THE SWORD AND DIE BY THE SWORD. Dual classing a Kensai is not to be taken lightly. To become a Mage, or worse, a Thief, is a dangerous undertaking. Probably alignment shifts would be involved. They would live, forever disgraced, and, unable to use their family blade should they ever break their vows. Don't get me wrong. Dual class potential is fun. I might even try a Kensai Mage some time. But, from my role playing sense, I know it is wrong, terribly wrong, and BROKEN! And there is a part of me that is deeply disturbed that the game designers translated these elements so poorly. A real Kensai would never head to the Guarded Compound to go pick up Celestial Fury. It would be far more honourable to use their own family blade, even if it was totally unenchanted. Also, Kensais, and Cavaliers as well, would NEVER run away from a battle. It is part of their personal code. Retreat is never an option. To run away would cause them to become a disgrace. A Kensai, a real Kensai, would fall on his own sword should he ever do that. A Cavalier would lose his Paladin status. Yet, in game, you just clicky clicky clicky and run away to live to fight another day.

I guess it is up to the player to police themselves on their actions, and, probably nobody is interested in my ranting, so, I will end this now.

**Walks away grumbling about Bards and Avatars**

Edit. Self correction. My bad. Undead Slayers can use Crossbows by default, as it is possible to fire stakes from a Crossbow class weapon. Nothing says "I love you!" like a stake through the heart long distance call.

[ 01-28-2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Butterfingers ]

[Baros]

Butterfingers - you're partitially right. Unfortunately a lot of the best elements of RPGs have been lost in the translation to CRPG - primarily role-playing.

For better or worse BG is about beating the game - it's a competitive thing. Whats the first thing it says in every pnp game - it's not supposed to be a competition.

Taking advantage of loopholes can spoil the game, but the challenge has been set by the designers and it's part of it. It's a good thing that the challenge can be easily tailored and the game modified so much. You want your kensai situation - create it! put the family blade somewhere in the game and roleplay it. Same with your multiclass complaint - no one forces you to do it.

[Alson]

I always enjoy reading in depth, intelligent replies. [img]smile.gif[/img] Since my D&D lore is about equivalent to zero, i couldn't really comment on your Kensai rant. However, it seems logical and fitting - but i cannot see any way whatsoever to implement such elements into a CRPG. BG2's Kensai kit is a compromise, and not a very good one, according to your description of a D&D Kensai. However, my post had POWERGAMING written all over it.

As for Avatar... According to your description of the Storm Elemental, i fail to see how this is any more unbalancing then, say, Spike Traps or Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna.

The Storm of Swords, however, is a TAD more impressing...

[Butterfingers]

Well, it's a nice idea, but, just wont work.

If I take a Kensai, and, lets just say I grab the plain old katana sitting in that table that you can find when you first start out, and, pretend to use it as the "Family Blade" I am going to run into "Weapon has no effect!" problems real soon.

Kensais work like Monks. Over time, they become one with their weapon. They gain To Hit and Damage bonuses. They also gain minor abilities at random, with every few level ups, as determined by a DM. They might get a chance to do a stunning blow, or, say, get a Sword of Sharpness effect that randomly lops a limb or two off in a fight. Or Ethereal Blow. They learn to move their blade so fast, so quickly, that the blade stops being solid and can strike ethereal creatures. At high levels, with all that skill, they might even get a vorpal effect. And all of it with a blade that might have no real enchantments of it's own.

As Korgan would say. "Shoddily made, and, shoddily maintained, but good killing grounds none the less." An accurate description of this game.

[Butterfingers]

Well, the Storm Elemental alone is rather impressive, however...

Add to the fact that while in Avatar form, the cleric has his casting time for all spells reduced to 1, plus, the ability to cast any divine spell as many times as he or she wishes while in Avatar form. Imagine chain casting earthquakes with no end in sight. Or machine gunning fingers of death. Imagine, to the poor mages surprise, when he goes to cast time stop and lo and behold, a 20 foot tall Storm Elemental charges him and pounds his sorry ass into putty.

What would be bad though, is that somebody could level as a Cleric of Talos till he gets the Avatar HLA, and, then dual to a Mage. With the way this game is designed, it would be possible to have negative casting times. Amulet of Power, Robe of Venca, Avatar form, both clerical and mage spells, it would be entirely possible to go and nuke the known universe.

Also, since you mentioned Nature's Beauty being so broken, read the Storm Bolt bit again. Blinded, deafened, and silenced with NO save. How many mages would survive this encounter? There is NO way to avoid, null, or prevent this attack. No saves, no possible way to resist, plus, all of the elemental damage it does. The final fight in ToB, from what I have read, would be over in seconds if a Storm Elemental was to go charging in.

Of course, if it was raining +6 Holy Avenger Vorpal swords, any fight would be over a little to quickly. Pray to what ever God you have you don't have any evil people in your party, like Viccy, as she would be totally erased from Toril.

[MrSmith]

just my 2 cents.

thieves: i like thieves but only for the convenience factor. i hate the fog-of-war with a passion, so they ussually scout ahead. i also hate resting every five minutes so i can re-memorize knock. but your right, you could do without him.

druids: maybe i'm biased from having to hear jaheira bitch and moan and nitpick everything i do, but i dont like druids. it might be different if they were actually useful early in the game or midgame. woohoo! i can shapechange into a bear! useless. the werewolf version is a little cooler at least.

other than that i agree with you.

slings are ridiculous. in the real world,they are terribly slow and innacurate weapons that dont do much damage (not to mention harder to use than a bow), but in BG they are every bit as good as a bow. or better since they are 1-handed weapons. but i could rant all day about weapons in DnD.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Just a little nitpick( and nothing to add, I am afraid), but only one Sling adds STR damage bonuses, the Sling of Seeking +2 sold by Bernard. The Sling of Everand used to have this perk, but it was a bug and removed in the Fixpack.