Penn & Teller Do it again!

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: I staged a test once a long time ago...I was about 18 or so and had a friend who was being suckered by a chirop[ractor for a lot of cash, I set up an appointment, told him I had lower back pain....turns out low and behold I had one leg longer than the other causing a misalignment. I thought this quite odd since Ihad no lower back pain. See anecdotal evidence says this guy was a shyster....so were the other two I visited for free exams at the mall....only problem was that no two could agee on which leg was longer

I wonder what would have happened if you'd gone to a few GPs with your pretend lower back pain? Now I can't say for sure because I haven't participated in any entrapment schemes like this ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), but I imagine they would also try to find what was wrong and alleviate your pain. They might give you anti-inflamatories, or send you off for an MRI or something. Surprisingly enough, people in the business of healing aren't usually expecting people to come in with fabricated injuries in order to catch them out trying to heal them [/QUOTE]The only reason I did it was because the one (the first one) was a shadey character and I didn't want my friend getting hurt. I heard later he was sued for actually breaking a mans neck a few months after my friend quit goig...the others I did on a lark since they were doing free anlysis at malls in the other cities.

Usually I don't get a wide variety of diagnoses from docs..they usually start with the most likely case based on patient history...at least our docs do...they have all kinds of guidelines, "we" being an HMO and all.

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by MagiK: Believers will always believe nomatter what evidence is produced [img]smile.gif[/img] (But I refuse to accept testimonials and anecdotes as proof!)

Isn´t that what belief is all about MagiK?

To get back on topic. It seems to me that we are perhaps dicussing two different types of chiropractors. An educated chiropractor deals with physiotherapy, not diagnoses! For instance a patient with a curved spine (or an aching shoulder) would be sent to a chiropractor instead of a masseur. Of course a masseur could probably treat this as well. But a chiropractor knows more about muscle-skeletal interaction than a masseur (at least the ones I know). The US seems to be the native country for con-artisits LOL!

[The Hierophant]

If people can be healed by the 'confirmation' of improvement that a placebo may bring, why try and dispel their positive reaction? That's what I don't quite understand. You may say it is to protect them from exploitation by money-grubbing shysters. But if they believe themselves to be cured, and can go on about their lives in increased comfort with a greater sense of security, then surely they havn't been exploited, they've been helped.
Some people need to believe in things like this. To say to them 'just think positively, you'll get the same result' simply doesn't work. They need to have some kind of mechanism to base that positive thinking upon. Be it taking a pill, saying a prayer, consulting a chiropractor, they all allow for a stable basis for that positive thinking to take place. The treatment may or may not be physically doing anything, but if it helps psychologically and makes the sufferer feel better then it is doing it's job.
The easing of pain is what medicine is all about right? An obsession with consulting a supposedly scientific method of inquiry in confirming a treatment's results may provide security of cynicism for some, but for others it merely makes an attempt to unravel the very thing which is capable of bringing them relief; faith.

Originally posted by WillowIX: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Believers will always believe nomatter what evidence is produced [img]smile.gif[/img] (But I refuse to accept testimonials and anecdotes as proof!)

Isn´t that what belief is all about MagiK?

To get back on topic. It seems to me that we are perhaps dicussing two different types of chiropractors. An educated chiropractor deals with physiotherapy, not diagnoses! For instance a patient with a curved spine (or an aching shoulder) would be sent to a chiropractor instead of a masseur. Of course a masseur could probably treat this as well. But a chiropractor knows more about muscle-skeletal interaction than a masseur (at least the ones I know). The US seems to be the native country for con-artisits LOL! [/QUOTE]Perhaps there are two types, however, there are physical therapists for the kind of problems I think that would be most helpped by the chiropractors. As for USA land of con-artists...can't disagree with you there [img]smile.gif[/img] but there are a fair number overseas too, even in totalitarian states like Iraq and Iran...just recently it made world news that some guy tried to rob a bank because he thought a sorcerer had made him invisdible....

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by MagiK: Perhaps there are two types, however, there are physical therapists for the kind of problems I think that would be most helpped by the chiropractors. As for USA land of con-artists...can't disagree with you there [img]smile.gif[/img] but there are a fair number overseas too, even in totalitarian states like Iraq and Iran...just recently it made world news that some guy tried to rob a bank because he thought a sorcerer had made him invisdible....

But that´s the beauty of physiotherapy MagiK! Some physios don´t use massage as treatment, others use massage as an important aid. There are several subdisciplines in physiotherapy. So a chiropractor is a specialised physiotherapist. Much the same as a surgeon is a specilaised physician. (This is about Canadian physiotherapy, not American [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[Oblivion437]

Personally, I think that while it may work, there are also ways other than it to fix the problem. For example, with the advent of nanotechnology, Modern medicine may have the one tool it will need to forever kick Alternative out the door, for good. However, effective nano-tech is a long way away.

[Grojlach]

Okay, bumping this one to the top... I've seen the episode MagiK mentioned now and this is the exact wording in the show on chiropractors:

Now we're not saying that chiropractic medicine can't help legitimate back and neck problems. In fact, it can help many who suffer from muscular injuries. But in some cases, the benefits you could get from a chiropractic adjustment are no better than what you get from a good massage. And some chiropractors irresponsibly promise much more.

And then follows a bit about an "alternative" chiropractor promising to give treatments to correct the "subluxation" (or whatever way you spell it), which they claim is the cause of things like cancer, brain damage, down syndrome, autism, heart problems, crossed eyes and bedwetting. Some kind of "new age" chiropractic medicine, more or less.
In other words, Penn & Teller were not targetting chiropractic medicine directly, only a certain bastard kind of chiropractic medicine. They never claimed chiropractic medicine was a scam.

[ 03-17-2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]