Europe's homegrown terrorists..

[Dreamer128]

A study carried out by the Clingendael Institute for International Relations in The Hague shows that terrorists who carry out attacks in Europe do not come from Islamic countries. They have almost always lived in Europe for many years and were often born there. Analysis of 30 attacks, failed and successful, show that the jihadis seldom have international connections, with al-Qaeda or anyone else. The terrorist attacks in Europe since 2001 involved 242 radical Muslims who ended up in court.

Researcher Edwin Bakker concludes that the jihad in Europe is a religiously-inspired manifestation of youth culture. The young jihadis are driven by hatred of the West but they do not want to change the land where they live into an Islamic state. This makes it difficult to negotiate with them.

(rnw.nl)

[PurpleXVI]

Pretty much to blame on our hard right. They're stomping down so hard on these guys that they don't feel like part of our culture, that they don't have a fair chance of getting integrated.

Integration, equal rights and equal treatment are the key. We need to recruit Muslim Imams and politicians and make them part of our culture and society so we have someone in the public eye spreading a moderate message, rather than all the firebrand fanatics who are grabbing the prime time news.

When you don't have a future it's easier to throw it away.

[johnny]

No, we need to round them up, and either shoot them all, like the Serbs did in Srebrenica, or evict them back to where they originate from.

Nobody is stomping on them, they have equal opportunities to education, social security, and even jobs, but research learns that the majority of, in this case, Moroccan teenagers, are early highschool dropouts, they're simply not interested in the matter. They rather hang on streetcorners, live on welfare, and make some extra cash by either stealing or selling dope. Not in any way have these people contributed to our society, a lot of the first generation still don't speak our language, the integration proces regarding these people is a complete failure and a waste of time and money.

Enough is enough, as far as i'm concerned we start deporting them yesterday.

[robertthebard]

A study carried out by the Clingendael Institute for International Relations in The Hague shows that terrorists who carry out attacks in Europe do not come from Islamic countries. They have almost always lived in Europe for many years and were often born there. Analysis of 30 attacks, failed and successful, show that the jihadis seldom have international connections, with al-Qaeda or anyone else. The terrorist attacks in Europe since 2001 involved 242 radical Muslims who ended up in court.

What does anything in the quote below have to do with people that were born there? They should already be integrated into a society they were born to. It's like the illegals here, getting government programs they aren't entitled to, and organizing marches protesting the enforcement of laws that have been on the books for years.

Pretty much to blame on our hard right. They're stomping down so hard on these guys that they don't feel like part of our culture, that they don't have a fair chance of getting integrated. Integration, equal rights and equal treatment are the key. We need to recruit Muslim Imams and politicians and make them part of our culture and society so we have someone in the public eye spreading a moderate message, rather than all the firebrand fanatics who are grabbing the prime time news. When you don't have a future it's easier to throw it away.

They don't have a future because they choose to not have a future, just like people anywhere else. If you want to fight your way out of the proverbial gutter, you can. They'd rather blow things up, and then cry about civil rights violations when they get convicted of a crime.

[PurpleXVI]

Ideals are very nice, but sometimes you have to look at reality.

Ideally, everyone gets what they deserve and if someone doesn't do enough to get by: Tough luck, they're just low down on the ladder.

Practically, bad things happen to good people, and when someone ends up not doing well in life, either through their own fault or someone else's: They're not happy about that. It's a fact of human nature, and telling them they deserve where they are aren't going to stop them mugging you, flooding across your borders or becoming extremists.

In theory, I can agree with your ideals, in a perfect world they'd really make everything good. But in the real world they just don't cut it. You have to be willing to compromise with your ideals or you're going to end up striving for something unattainable and ignoring urgent realities.

And yes, hard as it may be to believe, people born in a country can still be badly integrated. If their parents were never properly made part of society, work will need to be done to get the children there.

It's easy to look down on the people without a future and call them lazy when you've got one yourself.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Pretty much to blame on our hard right. They're stomping down so hard on these guys that they don't feel like part of our culture, that they don't have a fair chance of getting integrated. Integration, equal rights and equal treatment are the key. We need to recruit Muslim Imams and politicians and make them part of our culture and society so we have someone in the public eye spreading a moderate message, rather than all the firebrand fanatics who are grabbing the prime time news.

So someone like Omar Bakri (go ahead, google him), they need to recruit LOYAL (to the state) imams and monitor them for dangerous sympathies and teachings.

[PurpleXVI]

What does Omar Bakri have to do with this? I already pointed out that there were firebrand fanatics. When did I ever suggest they should recruit someone like him?

And no, they should monitor the ones who have been known to spread such things, they should not monitor all of them "just in case." While it would not necessarily be a violation of privacy, such a lack of trust and excess of surveillance could only breed dislike among the muslims.

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Ideals are very nice, but sometimes you have to look at reality. Ideally, everyone gets what they deserve and if someone doesn't do enough to get by: Tough luck, they're just low down on the ladder. Practically, bad things happen to good people, and when someone ends up not doing well in life, either through their own fault or someone else's: They're not happy about that. It's a fact of human nature, and telling them they deserve where they are aren't going to stop them mugging you, flooding across your borders or becoming extremists. In theory, I can agree with your ideals, in a perfect world they'd really make everything good. But in the real world they just don't cut it. You have to be willing to compromise with your ideals or you're going to end up striving for something unattainable and ignoring urgent realities. And yes, hard as it may be to believe, people born in a country can still be badly integrated. If their parents were never properly made part of society, work will need to be done to get the children there. It's easy to look down on the people without a future and call them lazy when you've got one yourself.

Speaking from the perspective of someone whose future is what you see now, sitting in a dark room, discussing things I can't control, some of which I wouldn't want to if I could, I think I have a pretty clear idea of what it means to not have a future. I fight tooth and nail to keep what I have, let alone do any of the things that used to make my life fun to live.

Yet I'm not out plotting the overthrow of my government because I have to claw my way through their red tape to get benefits they should have just given me. I don't even bash them overly much for it. I haven't put myself into a car bomb, and blown myself, and half a shopping mall to hell. It's not like I came from a rich, afluent neighborhood either. Considering I spent my 19th through my 25th birthdays in prison. I fight everyday to keep what I have, even though I know it's all I'm ever going to have, because even once I get my benefits, it's not enough to maintain the modest lifestyle I had before I fell ill.

The point being; it doesn't matter where you came from, how you were raised, what happens to you in your life. You can rise above it, if you try.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: What does Omar Bakri have to do with this? I already pointed out that there were firebrand fanatics. When did I ever suggest they should recruit someone like him? And no, they should monitor the ones who have been known to spread such things, they should not monitor all of them "just in case." While it would not necessarily be a violation of privacy, such a lack of trust and excess of surveillance could only breed dislike among the muslims.

A people who have a very real reason to PROVE to the civilized world that they can play nice and either root out their own extremists (a very rare occurrence) or at the very least not preach hatred and overthrow of their host nations. (I say host nations because in large part they refuse to assimilate and become a part of the nation they live in, loyalty first to the ummah rather than the infidel governments they live under). How many 9/11's, Madrid bombings, Beslan massacres, London Buses, Bali bombings, Parisian Riots, Darfur genocides, Sydney riots etc do we need to allow before we start holding accountable the things these psychos have in common.

[ 01-30-2007, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: A study carried out by the Clingendael Institute for International Relations in The Hague shows that terrorists who carry out attacks in Europe do not come from Islamic countries. They have almost always lived in Europe for many years and were often born there. Analysis of 30 attacks, failed and successful, show that the jihadis seldom have international connections, with al-Qaeda or anyone else. The terrorist attacks in Europe since 2001 involved 242 radical Muslims who ended up in court. Researcher Edwin Bakker concludes that the jihad in Europe is a religiously-inspired manifestation of youth culture. The young jihadis are driven by hatred of the West but they do not want to change the land where they live into an Islamic state. This makes it difficult to negotiate with them. (rnw.nl)

This isn't really a surprise when you consider the London train bombings and the recent plot to blow up airliners (which I got caught in the middle of, flying to London a few days after it was foiled).

I'm not close enough to this situation, but I know a lot of British born Pakistanis and other Muslims and their take on this is that it's what a lot of disenchanted youth do to "fit in" - they look at charismatic guys like Abu Bakir, Anjem Choudary and Omar Brooks (all "self styled" mullahs who don't really have any official training as such) sticking it up the "establishment" (in this case the British authorities or even the more moderate (and elderly) Islamic councils and they gravitate to these people, because they're seen as being cool (the "rebel with a cause syndrome").

In this case these youth think that the concept of jihad and sharia and all the rest of it are cool - it provides some order and stability in their world. They look at guys like Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah and they look at Hamas and they look at Osama Bin Laden and they gravitate towards these figures, because they feel disassociated with their own elderly religious leaders who might not be as charismatic and who might still do things "the old way" - and because these think these radical figures are cool.

We've seen this phenomenon on message boards - when a charismatic rebel-type arises and people tend to gravitate around them, because they have nobody else to gravitate to, to believe in. Cult of personality and all that.

Part of the problem I feel is because Islam is a grassroots religion with no organised clergy (ie anyone can be a mullah and profess to be an expert, and any of these mullahs can call a fatwa or call for jihad - though some may have more credibility than others), and with a lack of consistency in how the Quran is interpreted - like any ancient religious book it can be used to justify violence if you look for verses hard enough - and there is no organised moderate Muslim movement to act as a counterbalance to the radical elements.

This is why most of us look at the Muslim world and say "why aren't you doing anything? Why aren't you saying anything? Why don't you guys condemn these extremists?" For example, as a Roman Catholic I have the Pope to speak on behalf of all Catholics. Every moderate Muslim I've spoken to about al-Qaeda and the radicals has condemned these radicals as being "not Muslim" - but that's as far as they go. They don't organise into big rallies to denounce them or disassociate themselves with them, it's all done on an individual basis. There is no charismatic moderate mullah to whip up the moderate faithful against the extremists. As far as they're concerned OBL and the other extremists are "not Muslim" and hence the problem is not a Muslim problem - but it is, because they are all being tarred with the same brush. You can see this from the comments on this site alone lumping all of Islam into the same bucket.

[ 01-30-2007, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]