Hating Illegals

[robertthebard]

For myself, I don't hate anyone. I do, however, disagree with the fact that our leaders allow them to stay. Seemingly they encourage it. Legality has everything to do with it. It is illegal to go into any country w/out going through the proper channels. The fact that business takes advantage of having people in high places to keep them in country, so that their families can get benefits that they don't deserve. I've spent the better part of my adult life paying in to our Social Security system, and I have to fight tooth and nail, over the course of almost two years now, to get benefits that some of these illegals are getting almost as a matter of course. There is a flaw in that, and it is really apparent. How are they more entitled to benefits that I've paid for than I am?
You asked earlier what would happen if they all left tomorrow; my odds of getting my claim approved would increase locally from 1 in 30,000 to more like 1 in 20,000. The situation is really that bad. I live almost dead center of the United States, in Wichita, Kansas, and every grocery store in this city of 300,000+ have all of their signs in English, and Spanish. Why?
As to food on their tables, hey, what about my table? If not for my mom, I'd be sitting at the Public Library having this discussion, as I wouldn't have a home, let alone a table to put food on. I feel the same way about this as I feel about charities that are locally based, but more concerned about feeding children in Africa, than the kids in their own back yard. Why? Take care of our own first, and then start worrying about the rest of the world. If you can't take care of yourself, how can you pretend to take care of somebody else?

[Chewbacca]

The freedom and liberty to seek prosperity should be granted to every human on the world. The more the merrier. Hate that and you hate yourself.

[Olorin]

Freedom and liberty should be the right of every human being, but if anyone living in poorer countries where allowed to immigrate to the US (or any other wealthy country) without limits, how long before the US became just as bad as the countries they left? Can the US support an additional 100 million people? How about 500 million? 1 billion?

While I do think that the US should allow more _legal_ immigration than it does, I don't support increasing the limits until our leaders get serious about curbing _illegal_ immigration. That of course means cutting off government services and most importantly going after the employers.

I really think that its fundamentally unfair to allow millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico because they happen to share a land border, and at the same time, refuse entrance to people from Africa, Asia, and South America.

If the US economy really needs more immigrant labor, why do we allow that need to be filled with illegal immigrants rather than increase the number of people we allow to immigrate legally? At least legal immigration, we could allow a representative amount of people from all over the world, and those immigrants would have protection against American employers paying them slave wages or subjecting them to unsafe conditions.

Illegal immigration exists only to help the business community get cheap labor who can't complain about their conditions. If a shortage of workers existed, legal immigration could easily be adjusted to solve it. And the amnesty plans in Congress are a joke because they only make those already here legal, but leave the border open for fresh illegals to come across. Does anyone really think that the employers are going to keep the workers they have once they become legal? No, they are going to get rid of them, and hire the next wave of illegals so that their profits aren't affected. Which leaves us with 10+ million newly legal immigrants, most of which are suddenly unemployed; unless they just pretend that they're still illegal and don't demand decent wages.

Getting back to the original point about freedom and liberty; is it really going to help poor countries if the people who are the most motivated to improve their lives leave in search of a country where they can improve their lives more easily? How will there ever be change in corrupt governments if those most strongly dissatisfied with it leave?

[Bithron]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Okay, you know what? Let's say all of the illegal immigrants immediately left. Tell me what happens next. I'd like to hear how YOU imagine it. I'd like to hear what consequences you imagine and what improvements you imagine. Um. Currently a lot of Scandinavia NEEDS workers, hell, our economy would probably say bye-bye without the illegals filling a lot of niches. I also cannot see any reason to be so selfish as to refuse to share our wealth with a few unfortunate souls when all is going as well for us as it is. I can sorta understand the US, I mean, they're going somewhat downhill at the moment, very nasty situation. They just want to roll up and lick their wounds. But Scandinavia? We lack nothing. Everything is going wonderfully for our economy. I'd rather sacrifice a bit of my financial wellbeing to keep some illegal immigrants alive rather than let them starve because I'm a penny-pincher.

I just don't want my country to start having the problems that America has. No offense.

[PurpleXVI]

America's problems are not born from illegal immigration. It may exacerbate a few of the issues that America has, but it's a result of America's corporate mindset and governmental policies, not because of illegal immigrants.

Yes, we need to limit illegal immigration to some extent, yes, we need to get them out of the country if they're here without a really good reason and being exploited(I liked the idea of making their employer make up for what they were paid less than union wages, mind. A really good reason, by the way, would be something along the lines of needing political asylum.). I just think that hating them is focusing the hatred in the wrong place, that's the end of that.

And I think that anyone who thinks we should just "shoot them on sight" is a person who needs to learn some serious respect for the sanctity of human life.

[Havock]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: So only the wellbeing of your country matters? Not whether these people starve?

EXACTLY!!
I could realy care less what happens in other countries. It is not the job of the U.S. to babysit the rest of the world. If the citizens in other countrys took a little personal responsability for their own well being they might not have the problems that they do. I feel that your county is what you make of it, either a paradise or a toilet. If you don't work you should starve, it's called natural selection. If you don't fight to change your government then you deserve to suffer for it. America was built on people fighting for change, look at Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement. It is a shining example of the poorest of the poor uniteing and achieving change. If people are not willing to stand up for themselves then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: America's problems are not born from illegal immigration. It may exacerbate a few of the issues that America has, but it's a result of America's corporate mindset and governmental policies, not because of illegal immigrants. Yes, we need to limit illegal immigration to some extent, yes, we need to get them out of the country if they're here without a really good reason and being exploited(I liked the idea of making their employer make up for what they were paid less than union wages, mind. A really good reason, by the way, would be something along the lines of needing political asylum.). I just think that hating them is focusing the hatred in the wrong place, that's the end of that. And I think that anyone who thinks we should just "shoot them on sight" is a person who needs to learn some serious respect for the sanctity of human life.

I am glad that you know all about Americas problems from all the way over in Denmark. Maybe we should ship the thousands of illegals over there so you can expierience the reality of such a huge and useless drain on your countrys social programs and economic well being.They deserve the meages wages they get because they are criminals!! That is what being illegal means. Maybe one day they will get tired of only makeing $6 an hour and go back where they came from, do the required course work, and make their country less of a hell hole. Untill then, the invaders will get no pitty from me.

[PurpleXVI]

Indeed, I can claim that I know what's going on in the US, because I do. Can you claim that you know anything about Denmark except that it's in Scandinavia?

[Havock]

Nope, and I never did.

[Bithron]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: America's problems are not born from illegal immigration. It may exacerbate a few of the issues that America has, but it's a result of America's corporate mindset and governmental policies, not because of illegal immigrants

No, I'm not claiming that all problems will be removed with immigrants! I only claim that they are a part of the problem. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'll calm down now...

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: America's problems are not born from illegal immigration. It may exacerbate a few of the issues that America has, but it's a result of America's corporate mindset and governmental policies, not because of illegal immigrants. Yes, we need to limit illegal immigration to some extent, yes, we need to get them out of the country if they're here without a really good reason and being exploited(I liked the idea of making their employer make up for what they were paid less than union wages, mind. A really good reason, by the way, would be something along the lines of needing political asylum.). I just think that hating them is focusing the hatred in the wrong place, that's the end of that. And I think that anyone who thinks we should just "shoot them on sight" is a person who needs to learn some serious respect for the sanctity of human life.

There's a concept here that is confusing me. Maybe it's my medications, but I think it's more to do with the first line of the second paragraph. Saying we need to limit illegal immigration "to some extent" is like saying we need to limit murder to some extent. I read that as saying we need to allow it to some extent.

I don't believe any country should "allow" illegal activities, for any reason, whether that be immigration, or murder, or drug trafficking. I mean; where do we draw the line? What's the cutoff for legal illegal immigration? Where's the cutoff for legal illegal murder. Because "limit to some extent"=="allow to some extent". This can be taken to rediculous lengths here, but...

As Havoc pointed out, they are "invaders". That is exactly right. If England hadn't shot at their invaders in WW II, they'd be part of Germany. I wasn't born in Mexico, and I really don't want to live there. I sure don't want Kansas to become part of Mexico either. I say if the government isn't willing to enforce the laws that are on the books, it's up to the citizens to do it for them, and if the government wants to pitch a bitch about protecting our borders from illegal immigration/invasion, then it's time to replace them too.

[ 01-27-2007, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: robertthebard ]