Burning the Flag or Burning the Freedom to do so?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Nightwing: Flags only make people distance themselves from other people who are different from them. The day the world has no flags will be a glorious day indeed. Burn away, let the people be the meaning, not a piece of cloth.

Naive. Nice tought, but naive.

People inherently will ALWAYS look to a way to distinguish "us" and "them." Take away one way of distinguishing "us" and "them," and another will be created. Ad infinitum.

[Nightwing]

Unfortunately you are right Timber, it's a shame but It's true.

[True_Moose]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Note that a constitutional amendment cannot be struck down as unconstitutional.

I believe you're correct, but can you remind me how Prohibition was ended (because I seem to recall that was enacted via constitutional amendment)? I unfortunately do not remember.

[Timber Loftis]

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am18
The 18th Amendment prohibited the sale of liquor.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am21
The 21st repealed the 18th, and left prohibition up to the states.


Note that you can pass an Amendment repealing antidiscrimination, or making slavery legal again, or stating that all red-headed babies shall be put to death, or stating the Congress is abolished. There are no limits on what you can do.

You just need 2/3 of Congress and subsequent ratification by the states.

[ 06-29-2006, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Nightwing: Flags only make people distance themselves from other people who are different from them. The day the world has no flags will be a glorious day indeed. Burn away, let the people be the meaning, not a piece of cloth.

I can only about 1/2 agree with you. Flags are symbols, and invoke different thoughts/feelings from individual people. These are not going away because symbols are part of human nature and the human psyche. Even if your symbol is different than mine or if we have different thoughts about the same symbol, at the core we are very much alike in way we use symbols. The distance and division people create is not the fault of our symbols, but the errant ideas like seperateness or egotism we put forth behind them. People are the meaning, and our pieces of cloth are just an avenue of expression.


Too me, the U.S. flag represents the ideals and rights of liberty portrayed in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I say the day all the people of the world have symbols which stand for something like "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness" will be a glorius day indeed- especially if these ideals are realized and lived-by, rather then just paid lip service.

[ 06-30-2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Nightwing: Flags only make people distance themselves from other people who are different from them. The day the world has no flags will be a glorious day indeed. Burn away, let the people be the meaning, not a piece of cloth.

I can only about 1/2 agree with you. Flags are symbols, and invoke different thoughts/feelings from individual people. These are not going away because symbols are part of human nature and the human psyche. Even if your symbol is different than mine or if we have different thoughts about the same symbol, at the core we are very much alike in way we use symbols. The distance and division people create is not the fault of our symbols, but the errant ideas like seperateness or egotism we put forth behind them. People are the meaning, and our pieces of cloth are just an avenue of expression.


Too me, the U.S. flag represents the ideals and rights of liberty portrayed in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I say the day all the people of the world have symbols which stand for something like "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness" will be a glorius day indeed- especially if these ideals are realized and lived-by, rather then just paid lip service. [/QUOTE]'Most' of the populace of many countries do not know what their flag looks like! However, for the most part they can identify the US Flag as that of America.

It is up to us to promote "Life, Liberty, and Happiness" throughout the world. Like it or not, that's a fact Jack!

From the individual soldiers uniform, A Flag is worn; To the wings of fighter aircraft, a flag is worn. To the mast of any registered Ship, a Flag is flown.

To you it might be a symbol. To me it means a whole lot more! And not just to me, but to those kids in Kosovo, the farmers in Somalia, the storm struck in India, the sheep herders in the valley of sun. All have been touched by "MY" flag.

So, as Chewy says, when We ALL, as in ALL people of the world can touch one thing in common, then let it be freedom, and opression from others! So we all may live in harmony.

But until then, the route must be cleared, and the valley must be patrolled. And if it's the flag of my country that takes on this mission, and you don't support it, shame on you. If you do support, then praise on you.


Go ahead 'Nightwing' post the video link to you burning your countries flag so we all may get the party started!

[John D Harris]

If an admendment to the US Constitution is passed then it is no longer a freedom to burn the flag! Period end of story, until another admendment is passed to resend the anti-flag burning one! The US Constitution is what gives us the FREEDOM of speach, assembly, religion, right to bare arms, not be forced to be a slave, and the freedom to change the US Constitution! Every admendment AFTER the first 10 have been added and changed the US Constitution! Anyone (US citizen or foreign national living in and under the jurisdiction of the US Constitution) that can't accept any change to the US Constitution, done in a legal manner is not worthy of receiving any of the freedoms granted by the US Constitution! The original 10 or any of the ones added later!

IF anyone wants to ignor a legaly passed anti-flag burning admendment, then they had better not whine and cry like children IF another chooses to ignor any of the other admendments added later like say the 14th admendment, and OWN slaves. You can't have it both ways, accept it all or none of it! If the admendment is passed accept it or be hypocritical and self-centered.

Fight the passing of the admendment all you want, BUT once it's passed or not passed, grow up and live with it!

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: It's something that gets the conservatives up in arms everytime it comes to the floor, it will not succeed, and if it does it will immediately be challenged and struck down as unconstitutional. Personally I think there are very few occasions when the flag should be burned, primarily when properly disposing of it after it becomes unservicable, however if this does go through I may very well join Chewie in burning the flag.

Sorry Morg, but a legally passed admendment (as per the US Constituion) CAN NOT be struck down as Unconstitutional, because it (the admendment) WILL be the Consitution, and therefore Constitutional! The Constitution CAN NOT be struck down as Unconstitutional! US Civics 101!

Personally I don't think it will pass, and I don't want it to pass, because when we start adding piss-ant admendments to the Constitution we'll just keep on adding piss-ant admendments. we'll have so danm many piss-ant admendments we'll all have to be lawyers to be able walk out and pick up the news paper in the morning.

[Morgeruat]

fair enough, my mistake (and it was pointed out a few other times as well), but it can be rescinded like the prohibition (as earlier pointed out).

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Nightwing: Flags only make people distance themselves from other people who are different from them. The day the world has no flags will be a glorious day indeed. Burn away, let the people be the meaning, not a piece of cloth.

I can only about 1/2 agree with you. Flags are symbols, and invoke different thoughts/feelings from individual people. These are not going away because symbols are part of human nature and the human psyche. Even if your symbol is different than mine or if we have different thoughts about the same symbol, at the core we are very much alike in way we use symbols. The distance and division people create is not the fault of our symbols, but the errant ideas like seperateness or egotism we put forth behind them. People are the meaning, and our pieces of cloth are just an avenue of expression.


Too me, the U.S. flag represents the ideals and rights of liberty portrayed in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. I say the day all the people of the world have symbols which stand for something like "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness" will be a glorius day indeed- especially if these ideals are realized and lived-by, rather then just paid lip service. [/QUOTE]'Most' of the populace of many countries do not know what their flag looks like! However, for the most part they can identify the US Flag as that of America.

It is up to us to promote "Life, Liberty, and Happiness" throughout the world. Like it or not, that's a fact Jack!

From the individual soldiers uniform, A Flag is worn; To the wings of fighter aircraft, a flag is worn. To the mast of any registered Ship, a Flag is flown.

To you it might be a symbol. To me it means a whole lot more! And not just to me, but to those kids in Kosovo, the farmers in Somalia, the storm struck in India, the sheep herders in the valley of sun. All have been touched by "MY" flag.

So, as Chewy says, when We ALL, as in ALL people of the world can touch one thing in common, then let it be freedom, and opression from others! So we all may live in harmony.

But until then, the route must be cleared, and the valley must be patrolled. And if it's the flag of my country that takes on this mission, and you don't support it, shame on you. If you do support, then praise on you.


Go ahead 'Nightwing' post the video link to you burning your countries flag so we all may get the party started! [/QUOTE]That's just it Felix I don't identify myself with a country. I agree with chewy that it would be nice to have all countries flags represent something like "Life, Liberty, and Happyness" it's just not up to the United States to tell them or force them into doing it. Americas way is Americas way, not the rest of the worlds.

It's great Felix that The U.S. flag represents humantarian aid, it should not represent forced compliance like we are doing in Iraq right now. How would you like Iraq to come here and force us to change our government? That is exactly what we have done to them. I'm sure you would do your best to fight it off. They may be better off or worse but it should be their decision to make not ours.

And no I don't have a video of me burning anyones flag. It is a powerful statement and one people should be free to choose to do however.