Armed Police Shoot Man Dead on Underground

[Seraph]

I could probably verify this if I felt like going into the MHI archives here, but I don't have the time now, and won't for a few months. But if true it certainly disproves your "Violence alone never solves terrorism" statement.

I would like to see you try to confirm this, because I've read what you've quoted several times and after doing a fair amount of research into it I can't see it as anything more then a disgraceful insult directed at General Pershing. The incident you describe isn't mentioned in any of the official sources that I have read, but there are numerous refrences to General Pershing expressing regret at being forced to resort to violence. When possible he would try to surround the enemy and get then to surrender. In an incident where some refused to disarm and shot at troops, General Pershing responded with a letter that said among other things "I am sorry the soldiers had to kill any Moros. All Moros are the same to me as my children and no father wants to kill his own children . . .", he really doesn't sound like the kind of person who would do what you describe.

I'd also point out a few other things. First that the plot to your story somewhat similar to the Gary Cooper movie "The Real Glory". Second, that the plot to your story is very similar to a part of the book the book "Jungle Patrol" by Victor Hurley, but is attributed to someone else. Third, that calling the filipinos "terrorists" is misleading. The rebellion was an offshoot of the Philippine Insurrection and still generally considered part of the Philippine-American War. As such the "attacks" were generally against the millitary assetts of an occupying nation, so if you're going to call this a terrorist action, then I don't see how you could not make the same decelation about every other rebellion against a foreign power.

210 rounds basic load, replinished at any givien moment, from an unending supply. Sumpins gottta give.

The problem is you have to know who to shoot or you end up becoming exactly what you are hoping to eliminate.
Go look at the German experience in France, Norway, and Yugoslavia durring WWII. The Germans devoted massive ammounts of resources to combating partisan attacks, and they were never able to stop them. The only place they even became close to successful was Norway, where IIRC there were only 13 civilians for every German soldier. Even with that ratio they were never able to eliminate the Norwegan resistance. In a well run organization you have to bust each terrorist cell individually, and unfortunatly for the US the terrorists tend to be pretty good at adapting to changes in circumstances.

[Zink Whistlefly]

Well this just gets better and better. The man was "partially identified" as a potential terrorist as he left his flat. He was followed to Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" where he picket up a local paper and "descended slowly on an escalator" - he did NOT vault the ticket barrier. He then got onto a tube train, SAT DOWN, and was then siezed by police and shot EIGHT times (7 in the head, once in the sholder). To finish this amazing f*ck up off, he wasn't wearing a "large coat" at all, instead a lightweight denim jacket...

[Aragorn1]

Yeah, complete balls up.

Still, it seems not to be the actual men on the ground at fault, they were order to shoot him before they saw him, I would find this some comfort, from the point of view of the officers, as oppossed to the wrong split second decision it appeared to be firstly.

quote: quote:210 rounds basic load, replinished at any givien moment, from an unending supply. Sumpins gottta give.

The problem is you have to know who to shoot or you end up becoming exactly what you are hoping to eliminate.
Go look at the German experience in France, Norway, and Yugoslavia durring WWII. The Germans devoted massive ammounts of resources to combating partisan attacks, and they were never able to stop them. The only place they even became close to successful was Norway, where IIRC there were only 13 civilians for every German soldier. Even with that ratio they were never able to eliminate the Norwegan resistance. In a well run organization you have to bust each terrorist cell individually, and unfortunatly for the US the terrorists tend to be pretty good at adapting to changes in circumstances.[/QUOTE]Its a shame that certain Americans haven't learnt the lessons of history, that firepower will not always bring victory, especially when fighting an unseen enemy. A great many French, British, and indeed American lives lost without gain, to name but a few, goes to underline this point.

[ 08-19-2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Aragorn1: Its a shame that certain Americans haven't learnt the lessons of history, that firepower will not always bring victory, especially when fighting an unseen enemy. A great many French, British, and indeed American lives lost without gain, to name but a few, goes to underline this point.

And the only real sign that they're getting prepared to self-govern is a constitution that (from what I've seen/read) is frighteningly comparable to Egypt's, Iran's, and Afganistan under the Taliban.

[Aragorn1]

AFAIK, there is disagreement about the role of Sharia law and whether the south should be a more independent part of a Federal Iraq, the North isn't keen, as the south is where most of the oil is. One is Suni dominated and one is shia, can't remember which way round.

Still, if that's what they want, who are we to stop them? Isn't democracy the will of the people, what if this is what they want? (rhetorical questions, not statements of my opinions [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Reminds me of a contemporary American cartoon in my old a-level text book, it showed an American who seemed to be a politician draping the Stars and Stripes around a Vietnamese guy in his 'pyjamas' and bowl-like hat with him saying, "but it don't fit."

[ 08-19-2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

[shamrock_uk]

The kurds have a ton of oil too, it's not just in the South.

The counter-example to your 'executing by pigs blood' Morguerat is India. I believe we were fans of doing something similar to local rebels and also the Muslims believed we greased bullets with pig fat. All it got us was a big fat rebellion.

Re. the attitude Felix displayed about talking before shooting - that was probably why the American's killed more British in the first Gulf War than the Iraqi's did... Things weren't much better this time round given that we had to supply vehicles and flags as the American's didn't recognise the Union Jack

As for the shooting, it just gets worse and worse. The man was even being watched by other undercover officers already on the tube train. And if he was a suspect, why the heck didn't they stop him before he got on the bus or the tube? The officers are starting to sound like undisciplined rabble...

[ 08-20-2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Felix The Assassin]

Posted by Aragorn1: Its a shame that certain Americans haven't learnt the lessons of history, that firepower will not always bring victory, especially when fighting an unseen enemy. A great many French, British, and indeed American lives lost without gain, to name but a few, goes to underline this point. [ 08-19-2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

We have learned from history, it's called peace through superior fire power!

Posted by shamrock_uk: Re. the attitude Felix displayed about talking before shooting - that was probably why the American's killed more British in the first Gulf War than the Iraqi's did... Things weren't much better this time round given that we had to supply vehicles and flags as the American's didn't recognise the Union Jack

If it helps YOU any, I knew the Tank Commander that took the hellfire in the grill doors (rear end of tank) launched from a US AH-64.

From this time, re-check your stats. The Challenegr was in fact shot by another Challenger.

Now, the A-10s. That is different, and very old west 'cowboy' techniques. But, the nose gun on an A-10 cuts through US as well as it does anybody else. You have to fly Union Jacks? Why don't you fly reversed VS-17 panels like we do? That is not a perfect solution, but when reversed it is still viewable through night optics. Better yet, don't even be in the same time zone as an A-10.

FYI: Tank optics use a anti laser reflective coat on their sights, therefore the color Red, becomes colorless, or light abosorbing. And the Union Jack, I don't believe is polarized for night operations either. Just something to think about.

[ 08-20-2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Felix The Assassin ]

[Aragorn1]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: quote: Posted by Aragorn1: Its a shame that certain Americans haven't learnt the lessons of history, that firepower will not always bring victory, especially when fighting an unseen enemy. A great many French, British, and indeed American lives lost without gain, to name but a few, goes to underline this point. [ 08-19-2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

We have learned from history, it's called peace through superior fire power!
[/QUOTE]Ahh, but does it work? Any examples? I'm sure i could find lots of example from around the world where it does not work in a very short time.

[ 08-20-2005, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

[Dreamer128]

On the inititial topic. Here is the latest:

Police shooting - the discrepancies

Leaked documents from the independent investigation into the shooting of a man whom police mistook for one of the London Tube bombers, suggest key differences between the original police and witness version of events and subsequent reports.

The documents reportedly form part of the probe by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is refusing to comment while its inquiry continues.

Here is a comparison of the details made public in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, on 22 July, at Stockwell Tube station in south London, with those that have emerged from the leaked documents.

IDENTIFICATION

Initial account
Sir Ian Blair said on the day of the shooting that it had been "directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation".

The man was under observation because he emerged from a block of flats in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, where police believed a man connected with the four attempted bombings on the London Tube and bus network on 21 July was staying.

They followed him during his bus journey to Stockwell Tube station, where a Scotland Yard spokesman said his "clothing and behaviour" added to their suspicions.

Leaked evidence
Police staking out the flats, where Mr Menezes lived, decided he matched the description of one of the suspects they were seeking, according to the documents.

One officer reportedly said he "checked the photographs" and "thought it would be worth someone else having a look". However, he was unable to video the man for subsequent confirmation because he was "relieving" himself at the time.

By the time Mr Menezes reached Stockwell station, armed police received "positive identification" that the man they were following was one of the suspects.

CLOTHING

Initial account
One eyewitness, Mark Whitby, said Mr Menezes was wearing a thick padded jacket, despite the warm weather, which could have been used to conceal something underneath.

Another witness said he had a black baseball cap and blue fleece.

Scotland Yard had said on the day that his clothing had added to suspicions but had not elaborated further.

Leaked evidence
Some of the leaked documents and accompanying CCTV footage suggest Mr Menezes was wearing a blue denim jacket.

This is also referred to by a member of the police surveillance team who observed him on board a Tube train.

PURSUIT

Initial account
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said after the shooting: "As I understand the situation the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."

One eyewitness said at the time that Mr Menezes had vaulted over the ticket barriers just inside the entrance to Stockwell station as he was being pursued.

Leaked evidence
CCTV footage is said to show the man walking at normal pace into the station, picking up a copy of a free newspaper and apparently passing through the barriers before descending the escalator to the platform and running to a train.

He boarded a Tube train, paused, looking left and right, and sat in a seat facing the platform.

The eyewitness has subsequently told a newspaper that the man he saw vaulting the barrier must have been a police officer.

THE SHOOTING

Initial account
Although police would not give details of the incident because of the independent investigation, they did say shortly after it happened that officers had shot a man dead in Stockwell station.

The following day Scotland Yard admitted Mr Menezes had been shot by mistake and apologised to his family for the "tragedy".

Met chief Sir Ian Blair said his officers had tried to get Mr Menezes under control before shooting him.

A witness spoke of a man jumping on to the stationary train and grabbing a man sitting opposite. As the witness ran off the train he heard four "dull bangs", which he realised were shots.

Another said he saw Mr Menezes run on to the train, "hotly pursued" by what he took to be three plain-clothes police officers. He said they pushed him to the floor and shot him five times.

At the opening of the inquest into his death, police told the coroner Mr Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder.

Leaked evidence
In one of the leaked documents, said to be a statement from one of the police surveillance team designated Hotel 3, the witness describes hearing shouting - including the word "police".

The statement says Mr Menezes stood up and advanced towards the witness and armed police.

He adds: "I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side."

He said he pushed the man back into his seat.

It was only after he had restrained him that he heard a gun shot.

The documents say that a post-mortem examination showed Mr Menezes had been shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but that three other bullets had missed him.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4158832.stm

[Morgeruat]

The statement says Mr Menezes stood up and advanced towards the witness and armed police. He adds: "I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side." He said he pushed the man back into his seat. It was only after he had restrained him that he heard a gun shot.

That certainly makes it out to be a bit more in favor of the perception of the officers, if you were edgy about a possible suicide bomber and when confronted he stands and begins walking towards you... a tragedy still but more of a case of a series of missteps and semi-suspicious activity than a brutal slaying.