WAR MISCALCULATIONS

[Luvian]

So Animal, why is Bush doing it? I have an opinion, but I was not able to read his mind to know for sure. Can I get your opinion as a psychic?

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

No less evil than countries which do these same things to the citizen's of other countries. *No-one* can claim a moral righteousness in this war.[/QUOTE]Which means the solution is to -- DO NOTHING ????? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]The solution is not to do nothing. I do not know what the solution is nor to do i profess to. I do know however that the solution does not involve violence.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: You do not judge the Iraqi government as wrong? The Taliban as evil? or any form of religous and/or culture that allow's abuse/torture/murder of any of their people wrong?

No less evil than countries which do these same things to the citizen's of other countries. *No-one* can claim a moral righteousness in this war.[/QUOTE]Which means the solution is to -- DO NOTHING ????? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]That's quite a jump to make - there was never any suggestion that we do nothing. Indeed, I would suggest that we clean up our own house first. What do I mean?

The United States certainly does have laws preventing human rights abuses from happening on domestic soil (although the Patriot Act has eroded some of these rights, as Joe Padilla discovered to his cost). In GM bay we have held some 600 people without trial and without access to judicial process for 18 months. They are held because they are 'terrorists'; dictatorships usually just call them 'enemies of the state' - but the results are the same

But that is not the worst of it.For more than 50 years the United States (often with a little covert help from the UK) has supported foreign regimes and paramilitary organisations that do commit such crimes against humanity as a matter of normal policy. And that support has come back to haunt us.

For example, the US and UK installed the Shah of Iran - and helped keep him there. During his reign of terror, thousands were arrested, put to death and the population brutalised until a popular revolution ousted him. The new government to arise was religious but with a strong reformist element. Because the US was worried about this new powerful anti-US state, it armed and supported the local tyrant next door (Saddam Hussein) with conventional and unconventional weapons and then convinced him to wage war with Iran.
During the war, Saddam used the opportunity of 'national neccessity' and excuses to 'treason' to wipe out the last vestiges of opposition to his rule. In Iran, the Ayatollah did the same, putting the reform movement back by 10 years.

It was only three years after the war (which claimed more than a milliion lives), when Saddam invaded Kuwait, did the US/UK finally end their support.

Today, the US supports Israel to the hilt. So they detain thousands without trial, engage in torture, steal tland, murder and starve people, develop nuclear weapons and flaunt more than 60 SC Resolutions? Doesn't matter - Israel is important to our strategic Middle Eastern interests - so we'll toss them a few billion every year and arm them to the teeth.
What? Egypt, the police state that uses torture as a method of 'dissident control' is complaining? Give them a couple of billion a year, 'forget' their human rights abuses and they won't complain anymore - hell, they'll even torture any of their own citizens that do.

Then 9/11 occurs and many people yell "They're just jealous of our freedom". Perversely, they may be right.

[ 04-07-2003, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Mordenheim]

While this is true Skunk I have yet found a government that has not or does not support such for personal gain. I mean France and Russia were the two biggest trading partners with Sadam.

I never said they were jelous of our freedom. Bin Laden attacked because of our policy in Saudi Arabia. He should have attacked his own country who happily accepts the money and aid thrown their way. The bottom line is I have heard not jelousy but fear that a western (not just American) lifestyle is spreading and they don't like it. Look at Iran where the younger population is becoming more liberal under a very opressive relgious style government. Read about the marches that were knocked down by brutal retaliation.

Was it you who claimed Europe was not jut as much in the supporting dictatorships for gain? That is the biggest joke ever. The world is a huge political stage where countries turn a blind eye for strategic gain. Take Northern Ireland for example. I have talked to many British people from another board who want their government to pull out and wash their hands of that.

I find it funny as soon as Sadam's regime is attacked it is "look you are trying to change their culture!" or "you just want to make them live you're lifestyle!" or "you just want to occupy them!". Yet if we play nice we hear the same garbage. A very much damned if you do and damned if you do not scenario. Some of you will NEVER be happy no matter what. That is the bottom line.

[Skunk]

Bin Laden attacked because of our policy in Saudi Arabia

That is true - the US is supporting a dicatorship which uses torture and imprisonment without trial as an ordinary tool of the state. Saudia Arabia can *never* see a successful popular uprising nor peaceful reform as long as it receives the support of the United States. So Bin Laden's tactic was to attempt to make the US re-appraise its foreign policy with regards to Saudia Arabia.

Was it you who claimed Europe was not jut as much in the supporting dictatorships for gain? That is the biggest joke ever.

No, don't just say "it's a joke" - give me examples.
Show me where the French have military bases located within the territories of a dictatorship? Give me an example of how German secret agents overthrew a democratically elected government. Drop in an article about how the Spanish are selling large amounts of arms to a dictatorship or how Denmark is giving big cash bonus's to dictators.

The only EU country that you can truly point the finger at is the United States long-term partner in crime, the UK. But I already mentioned them, didn't I?

I have a feeling that I'm in for a long wait...

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: Bin Laden attacked because of our policy in Saudi Arabia

That is true - the US is supporting a dicatorship which uses torture and imprisonment without trial as an ordinary tool of the state. Saudia Arabia can *never* see a successful popular uprising nor peaceful reform as long as it receives the support of the United States. So Bin Laden's tactic was to attempt to make the US re-appraise its foreign policy with regards to Saudia Arabia.

[/QUOTE]Not quite, Bin Laden acted because he was offended by the presence of "Infidels" on Saudi Soil. Before Air bases popped up in Saudi he had no interest in human rights or Palestine, etc... The idea that he acted because of US support of the Saudi government is not supported by a shred of evidence from the period that I've ever seen. Sounds like revisionism to me.

Quote: Was it you who claimed Europe was not jut as much in the supporting dictatorships for gain? That is the biggest joke ever.

No, don't just say "it's a joke" - give me examples.
Show me where the French have military bases located within the territories of a dictatorship? Give me an example of how German secret agents overthrew a democratically elected government. Drop in an article about how the Spanish are selling large amounts of arms to a dictatorship or how Denmark is giving big cash bonus's to dictators.

The only EU country that you can truly point the finger at is the United States long-term partner in crime, the UK. But I already mentioned them, didn't I?

I have a feeling that I'm in for a long wait...[/QUOTE]Hmm... the idea that anyone holds moral high ground in this world is ludicrous. The French have skelatons in their closet that date back many hundreds of years. In recent history one could discuss places like Algeria, Vietnam and some islands in the South Pacific... but frankly I'm not interested in pointless arm chair quarterbacking of decisions made decades ago to support governments based on criteria that no longer apply. I find it interesting that you bring up selling arms though, especially in light of recent documents which enumerate sales of military spare parts and equipment to Iraq from several of the nations on your list. Additionally I'd suggest you do a quick search regarding the region of the world that is the leading consumer of exported French Arms... there are no clean hands in this world.

[ 04-07-2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Animal: You talk about the treatment of women in Iraq. I ask you this...do you know exactly how many women are beaten each day in the US or Canada or Britain or Germany or France, or any western culture because the men have the freedom to go out to the bar and get pissed each night, come home and beat the living crap out of their girlfriends or wives? Before the US, or any other nation for that matter starts passing judgement, they need to take a long hard look at their own culture. How many women in the United States are being beaten tonight? We have no right, NO RIGHT, to pass judgement on Iraq, when we are no better than they are.

This is a sidebar so ignore if you wish to stay on subject...

I understand the point of your argument and I tend to agree with it (I try very hard not to be judgemental, I know my house is made of glass), but propegating this sort of feminist misinformation is simply unacceptable to me.

-Are you aware that EVERY unbiased study of domestic violence in the US and Canada has shown that women instigate violence in DV situations AT LEAST 50% of the time? (one canadian study showed that women instigate DV MORE often than men).

-Are you aware that in the US is the police are called to a home for a domestic violence incident, they will AUTOMATICALLY arrest the male in the majority of cases (Deluth Model) even if HE is the one who called the police in the first place.

-Are you aware that there are many hundreds of shelters where battered women can go with their children to escape violent men... and that only ONE that I'm aware of (in California) accepts battered men.

-Are you aware that even though men are much larger and stronger in most cases, UNBIASED research shows that hospital admission records indicate 30% of DV related admissions are MEN... and this is even though men are MUCH less likely to seek out help for DV related injuries, and MUCH more likely to attempt to hide the fact that their injury is DV related.

-Are you aware that the term "Domestic Violence" technically includes Child Abuse... and that women commit two-thirds of all child abuse in the US? If those statistics are factored in, then women are responsible for SIGNIFICANTLY
more violence in the home than men are.

I would suggest that you do some research on the subject, because before I did I would have accepted those feminist misinformed statements just as readily as you have. If you would like references for the above information I'd be more than happy to provide.

[ 04-07-2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Mordenheim]

What does bases have to do with anything? If you deal with a dictatorship or a oppresive government then you ARE supporting it. Period and to try to wiggle around that is dubious at best.

[Mordenheim]

Originally posted by Thoran: Quote: Originally posted by Animal: You talk about the treatment of women in Iraq. I ask you this...do you know exactly how many women are beaten each day in the US or Canada or Britain or Germany or France, or any western culture because the men have the freedom to go out to the bar and get pissed each night, come home and beat the living crap out of their girlfriends or wives? Before the US, or any other nation for that matter starts passing judgement, they need to take a long hard look at their own culture. How many women in the United States are being beaten tonight? We have no right, NO RIGHT, to pass judgement on Iraq, when we are no better than they are.

This is a sidebar so ignore if you wish to stay on subject...

I understand the point of your argument and I tend to agree with it (I try very hard not to be judgemental, I know my house is made of glass), but propegating this sort of feminist misinformation is simply unacceptable to me.

-Are you aware that EVERY unbiased study of domestic violence in the US and Canada has shown that women instigate violence in DV situations AT LEAST 50% of the time? (one canadian study showed that women instigate DV MORE often than men).

-Are you aware that in the US is the police are called to a home for a domestic violence incident, they will AUTOMATICALLY arrest the male in the majority of cases (Deluth Model) even if HE is the one who called the police in the first place.

-Are you aware that there are many hundreds of shelters where battered women can go with their children to escape violent men... and that only ONE that I'm aware of (in California) accepts battered men.

-Are you aware that even though men are much larger and stronger in most cases, UNBIASED research shows that hospital admission records indicate 30% of DV related admissions are MEN... and this is even though men are MUCH less likely to seek out help for DV related injuries, and MUCH more likely to attempt to hide the fact that their injury is DV related.

-Are you aware that the term "Domestic Violence" technically includes Child Abuse... and that women commit two-thirds of all child abuse in the US? If those statistics are factored in, then women are responsible for SIGNIFICANTLY
more violence in the home than men are.

I would suggest that you do some research on the subject, because before I did I would have accepted those feminist misinformed statements just as readily as you have. If you would like references for the above information I'd be more than happy to provide.[/QUOTE]wow a lot there I was ignorant of

[Masklinn]

I understand the point of your argument and I tend to agree with it (I try very hard not to be judgemental, I know my house is made of glass), but propegating this sort of feminist misinformation is simply unacceptable to me. -Are you aware that EVERY unbiased study of domestic violence in the US and Canada has shown that women instigate violence in DV situations AT LEAST 50% of the time? (one canadian study showed that women instigate DV MORE often than men). -Are you aware that in the US is the police are called to a home for a domestic violence incident, they will AUTOMATICALLY arrest the male in the majority of cases (Deluth Model) even if HE is the one who called the police in the first place. -Are you aware that there are many hundreds of shelters where battered women can go with their children to escape violent men... and that only ONE that I'm aware of (in California) accepts battered men. -Are you aware that even though men are much larger and stronger in most cases, UNBIASED research shows that hospital admission records indicate 30% of DV related admissions are MEN... and this is even though men are MUCH less likely to seek out help for DV related injuries, and MUCH more likely to attempt to hide the fact that their injury is DV related. -Are you aware that the term "Domestic Violence" technically includes Child Abuse... and that women commit two-thirds of all child abuse in the US? If those statistics are factored in, then women are responsible for SIGNIFICANTLY more violence in the home than men are. I would suggest that you do some research on the subject, because before I did I would have accepted those feminist misinformed statements just as readily as you have. If you would like references for the above information I'd be more than happy to provide.

Please do, as well as an accurate definition of Domestic Violences.